Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, you have a point? You know anyone else who is the beginning and the end that deals
So God knows in advance that he will get upset, or that mankind will sin or that Satan will throw a spanner in the works etc etc.... and continues on knowing the end result is being upset or regret?
with those of us in the now?
Originally posted by CalJustKing Saul became King before David was born. So I would say that the reason God did not choose David to be King in the first place is that David was not born yet. Does that Make sense to you? 😏
The point that should bother you, or any literal reader, is why did God not chose David in the first place?
Let me respond to some posts and then in a separate post give my own solution of this conundrum.
Firstly, Josephw : Who said I was being disingenuous:
Yes, (thanks, KJ) I DO have a life, but I will respond to your points.
You wrote: Every word and phrase and verse must be compared to all the rest of scripture to get a better understanding of the whole and its individual parts in particular
Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point.
Then you said: God expressing regret and repentance demonstrates to us the nature of His character for our own good
So you essentially accept the fact that God, at times, can have regret, and can repent of something that he did. So there is no problem for you in these passages. Good for you – only then you certainly do not have an omnipotent and omniscient god.
GofaD:
You said that : he changes his mind on things only in response to the failings of human beings
This means that you basically agree with josephw that, yes, God does change his mind on occasion, but only if he has a pretty good reason.
LemonLime
You wrote: This assumption of error is inconsistent with the nature of God. The passages that appear to you as though God regrets making a mistake are not embellishments that should be rejected
If God can be pleased he can be displeased. What the passages you quote mean to me is that God not only thinks and acts, he also feels
So you also believe that the text is factually correct and that God basically has human emotions. Interesting.
(On my choice of words “just opened” you wrote that I'm only pointing this out to illustrate how easily someone could have (purposefully) 'misunderstood' what you meant. Yes, I realised afterwards that the word could be misinterpreted. But I do not believe people intentionally misunderstand. It is the nature of discussion to try to eliminate such misinterpretations. You at least understood what I meant.)
Sonship
You wrote: But in the progressive revelation leading up to the Son of God offering Himself for the sins of the world this is an educational window into the Divine heart.
Here I at least agree with you. That there is a “progressive revelation”. This means that when the “more true” is revealed, then the “previous lesser true” falls away.
Kelly Jay:
You wrote: Where did it say God made a mistake?
He was upset about what we did, that doesn't mean it was a mistake.
Yes, He was upset about what WE did, but the text clearly said that He was sorry about what HE did. And in anybody’s book, if you regret something that you did, for whatever reason, then one can safely say it was a mistake to do it in the first place.
I have been maligned for claiming that God makes mistakes, but that is precisely what the text says, not I.
I claim that God does NOT make mistakes, and therefore this text is suspect. Let me explain:
No matter how much theology one wants to put into these passages, the text is actually very clear. Even (and especially) in the context, the story is a very simple one, and it is impossible to misconstrue. It is even easier to understand when one removes the word God and replaces it with Jones.
What happened is that Jones took an action in good faith, the eventual results of which were less than expected, which caused Jones to take a different course of action to correct the negative elements of the previous decision. In one instance, Jones laments the unintended consequences of a previous choice of action, that he did not foresee.
When we read this narrative (and I submit that there is no other way to read it) we see immediately that these are very human attributes. We would have no problem at all with these stories, except that, well, Jones is actually God.
Now at least josephw, lemon lime and GofaD have no problem attributing human thoughts and emotions to God. But it DOES create a problem when seen in the light of the rest of scripture, where we are told repeatedly (especially in Psalms) that God “changes not”, that he is “immovable, steadfast”. Paul also says that there is “no shadow of turning”.
So how do we deal with this dilemma? Does God repent and change or does He not?
Here is my opinion, and feel free to differ.
The overall and composite picture that we are presented with in scripture about God is quite clear. Especially if we study the way that Jesus presented the Father to us. Certainly NOT a dictatorial tyrant, nor a dithering busybody. That is the best picture we have.
In the OT, most of which was written during the Babylonian captivity around 500 BC, the writer’s of these book put down their stories and traditions as best they could, taking into account their world view and their understanding of God AT THAT TIME.
Mostly they got it right, sometimes they screwed up!
The point of these stories are profound and hidden within the narrative. But later revelations and insights revised some of these earlier anthropomorphic pictures of God.
Hence we should not take every verse of the Bible literally. As Richard Rohr (my favourite Franciscan monk) says: the literal meaning is the lowest form of understanding of any Bible verse.
Originally posted by CalJustYou're assuming I'm giving God anthropomorphic characteristics when in fact I'm saying God has given us god-like characteristics. The Bible says he created us in his image, it does not say we created him in ours.
I have been maligned for claiming that God makes mistakes, but that is precisely what the text says, not I.
I claim that God does NOT make mistakes, and therefore this text is suspect. Let me explain:
No matter how much theology one wants to put into these passages, the text is actually very clear. Even (and especially) in the context, the story is a v ...[text shortened]... anciscan monk) says: the literal meaning is the lowest form of understanding of any Bible verse.
The anthropomorphic view, attributing God with human characteristics, is what atheists naturally believe must be the case. They believe we must have invented God rather than him inventing us, because they are convinced there is no God who could have given us an ability to understand him. This is understandable, but it's not understandable how someone who does believe God exists can only exist as we choose to define him... this would be like me saying you (CalJust) only exist because I have chosen to believe you exist as I have defined you.
Originally posted by CalJustYes God is angry, and for me it makes sense. If you read John 3: 18-19 you'll see
Let me respond to some posts and then in a separate post give my own solution of this conundrum.
Firstly, [b] Josephw : Who said I was being disingenuous:
Yes, (thanks, KJ) I DO have a life, but I will respond to your points.
You wrote: [i] Every word and phrase and verse must be compared to all the rest of scripture to get a better understanding o ...[text shortened]... did, for whatever reason, then one can safely say it was a mistake to do it in the first place.[/b]
something about the state we are currently in with God. We stand before God already
condemned for our sins. Our only out is Jesus Christ, to avoid Jesus leaves us where
we are.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
I'd also point you to a another place too in Jeremiah God tells us His wrath could
break out against us. It is there already and He is holding it back. Unlike man God does
not mix His wrath with His grace and mercy, if you receive His grace and mercy that is
all you get there will be no wrath mixed into it. Your sins will be cast as far as the East
is from the West. If you receive God's wrath, there will be no mercy, not a drop, you will
pay to the utmost and cries about it will continually go unheard.
People fail to see we are all receiving God's grace right now, if not it would be justice for
all the deeds we have done, thought, and left things left undone. Judgment day will seal
us in what ever state we are in when we stand before God due to our own righteousness
we have before Him.
Jeremiah 21:12
This is what the Lord says to you, house of David: “‘Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.