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KJ, you make a lot of good points, but they are totally outside of the scope of this discussion. When I mentioned humans creating god after their own image, that is exactly what I meant - we attribute human characteristics to god, which are not valid. What it has to do with his wrath, is also not clear to me, other than as another anthropomorphic aspect.
I tried to summarise it for you, and if you would like to comment in the context of this thread, please do so.
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Originally posted by CalJustIf you had bothered to read the Bible you would see that in 1 Samuel 9 we see the people clamoring for a king. God then told the prophet Samuel that the people were rejecting him and that he was to warn the people of the impending abuses of a king who was a sinful man.
1 Samuel 15, 35: "And the LORD was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel..." In other words, for whatever reason, he had made a wrong judgement call the first time around.
.[/b]
Then God gave another chilling warning. He said that if the people still wanted a king after the warning, that he would not hear their cries if they still wanted him as king and made him king and suffered under his rule
Judging by how the nation of Israel devolved into nothingness under the said king system, it would appear the prophesy was spot on.
So yes, even though God appointed Saul king it was not what he wanted, and it caused him to grieve.
I think it is the same reaction a parent has when their child is raised to behave a certain way and they later reject it.
Originally posted by CalJustAlthough God knows that evil will occur, God is not the originator of such evil.
Jer. 19, 5 talking about people sacrificing their children to idols "I did not command it, neither did it enter my mind!". In other words, what they did was so terrible, I never even considered the possibility that somebody would do that!
These are examples of man creating god in his image. Let's see some mental gymnastics to explain these verses away....[/b]
God then gave them the example of Abraham going to the mountain to sacrifice his son Isaac. God used this example to let them know that child sacrifice was not acceptable in a world dedicated to child sacrifice.
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Originally posted by CalJustDoes this mean the comments of anyone who believes God gave us attributes (some small measure) of his own character and mind is outside the scope of this discussion?
KJ, you make a lot of good points, but they are totally outside of the scope of this discussion. When I mentioned humans creating god after their own image, that is exactly what I meant - we attribute human characteristics to god, which are not valid. What it has to do with his wrath, is also not clear to me, other than as another anthropomorphic aspect.
...[text shortened]... marise it for you, and if you would like to comment in the context of this thread, please do so.
You clearly do not believe God had a hand in 'authoring' the Bible... in other words, he left it entirely in the hands of people attempting to figure it out for themselves. My opinion differs from yours in that I believe God was a 'ghost writer' of sorts, and directly influenced the various writers contributing to what became a collection of books we call the Bible.
The fact that people will create a concept of a god or gods, and attribute to them human characteristics in order to make those gods understandable (from a human point of view) does not disprove a God imparting to us the ability to understand him.
Originally posted by CalJustWe grasp human characteristics because we are human, what characteristics do you
KJ, you make a lot of good points, but they are totally outside of the scope of this discussion. When I mentioned humans creating god after their own image, that is exactly what I meant - we attribute human characteristics to god, which are not valid. What it has to do with his wrath, is also not clear to me, other than as another anthropomorphic aspect.
...[text shortened]... marise it for you, and if you would like to comment in the context of this thread, please do so.
think we would grasp that are not human? We apply our views on what animals are
doing trying to understand them, why? That is all we know!
The whole point of the Word of God becoming flesh was so that we could through all of
our human characteristics grasp God in terms we understand! Even there we are told that
to really grasp God we need God's Spirit in us!
1 Corinthians 2:
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
Originally posted by whodeyOf course, you and I both know that God is not the originator of evil.
Although God knows that evil will occur, God is not the originator of such evil.
God then gave them the example of Abraham going to the mountain to sacrifice his son Isaac. God used this example to let them know that child sacrifice was not acceptable in a world dedicated to child sacrifice.
But the scripture I quoted seems to indicate that God DID NOT EXPECT that particular evil to occur. That is what the text says.
As far as the story of Abraham and Isaac is concerned, again, if you read the narrative carefully, the point of the story is NOT that child sacrifices are wrong, but that God DID NOT KNOW how Abraham would react, whether he would actually sacrifice his son or not. The morality of child sacrifices was never at issue, what was at issue was that GOD DID NOT KNOW, until the test was over.
The text clearly states God saying: NOW I know.... He did not know before.
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Originally posted by whodeyThis is the same argument that sonship made, but it misses the point entirely.
If you had bothered to read the bible....
So yes, even though God appointed Saul king it was not what he wanted, and it caused him to grieve.
I think it is the same reaction a parent has when their child is raised to behave a certain way and they later reject it.
What went on BEFORE the appointment of Saul is irrelevant. Yes, God was grieved that they rejected him and wanted a king. Yes, Samuel tried hard to dissuade them. But in the end, grieved or not, God relented and chose a king for them.
Only NOW does the subject of my discussion kick in. Once the die was cast that Israel would get a king, God sent Samuel to anoint one. He had many people to chose from. He chose Saul, for whatever reason he knew.
Saul screwed up big-time.
God then said: I am really sorry I chose Saul in the first place, let's see if there is another, possibly better, candidate.
Do you follow at all? Is my English so bad?
Originally posted by CalJust"Now I know."
Of course, you and I both know that God is not the originator of evil.
But the scripture I quoted seems to indicate that God DID NOT EXPECT that particular evil to occur. That is what the text says.
As far as the story of Abraham and Isaac is concerned, again, if you read the narrative carefully, the point of the story is NOT that child sacrifices are ...[text shortened]... was over.
The text clearly states God saying: [b]NOW I know.... He did not know before.[/b]
Now the choices have been made, even if God had known before hand all doubt has
been removed if there was any or better said, now the act was done. Could God have
righteously judged and condemned before that act? That would have condemning
someone for a crime not done.
Knowing the beginning and the end while dealing with people who are only alive in this
moment of time called now causes some real dances with language and justice in my
opinion. If we truly do have the ability to do what we will and act upon our choices would
God be just to condemn us while we were babies having done no good or bad yet?
Is it righteous to let it play out so all can be witnesses, us and the angels? I'd say if we
were not allowed to shown evil for what it is. to show righteousness for what it is, how than
would anyone outside of God really know either? Without just taking God at His Word on'
all topics which touch those, would there be doubt, would anyone wonder why? What
would be needed to be instead, robots with no real *will* in life no matter where or what
kind, be it either physical and spiritual?
Originally posted by KellyJayYou say " even if God had known before hand.....".
"Now I know."
Now the choices have been made, even if God had known before hand all doubt has
been removed if there was any or better said, now the act was done.
You see, that is my point with this text. We know that God knows everything, and can foretell the future, right? So God must have known what Abraham' final decision was going to be.
Why does it then say: " Now I know?"
You haven't answered that point, although all your other comments, as far as an outside observer is concerned who is watching, is correct. They would not know what A's decision would be until it was made.
But why does it say that God did not know until he was about to do the deed?
Originally posted by CalJustI believe He knows, I've not denied that. What I am telling you that foreknowledge does not
You say " even if God had known before hand.....".
You see, that is my point with this text. We know that God knows everything, and can foretell the future, right? So God must have known what Abraham' final decision was going to be.
Why does it then say: " Now I know?"
You haven't answered that point, although all your other comments, as far as an ...[text shortened]... as made.
But why does it say that [b]God did not know until he was about to do the deed?[/b]
mean He will condemn before the crime is done. What would you think He should have
said while speaking to one of us about something we did which would have caused a
response?
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Originally posted by CalJustGod asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac long before we see in Jeremiah saying that God never imagined children being sacrificed.
You say " even if God had known before hand.....".
You see, that is my point with this text. We know that God knows everything, and can foretell the future, right? So God must have known what Abraham' final decision was going to be.
Why does it then say: " Now I know?"
You haven't answered that point, although all your other comments, as far as an ...[text shortened]... as made.
But why does it say that [b]God did not know until he was about to do the deed?[/b]
The interpretation I have for that is, God knew about child sacrifice, otherwise he would not have asked Abraham to do so long before Jeremiah was even born. In fact, I think the reason God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son to him was because God knew that generations after Abraham people would be sacrificing their children to various gods. God wanted everyone to know that the God of Abraham did not condone child sacrifice as he stopped Abraham from doing so.
When it says that it never entered the mind of God, I think what is being conveyed is that God would never have anyone go through with such a thing.
It would be nice to know Hebrew and read it in its original verbage.
Originally posted by whodeyChild sacrifices did not start with Jeremiah. They were rampant in Abraham's day, and for all we know even before, in the dawn of history.
When it says that it never entered the mind of God, I think what is being conveyed is that God would never have anyone go through with such a thing.
It would be nice to know Hebrew and read it in its original verbage.
I think your interpretation of the words "entered the mind of god" is not correct, and the actual words convey cogniscance rather than approval or the lack of it.
But let's not thrash this to death. If you are happy with your pov, then go in peace.
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Originally posted by KellyJayI agree that you cannot punish somebody for murder or for theft before the crime is commiitted, even if you knew for sure (assuming you had that sense of pre-cognition) that the person would commit that act.
I believe He knows, I've not denied that. What I am telling you that foreknowledge does not
mean He will condemn before the crime is done. What would you think He should have
said while speaking to one of us about something we did which would have caused a
response?
But I am not sure how that applies here. Do you get the sense from reading the text alone, and with no other information about the speaker that the speaker knew BEFOREHAND that Abraham would do what he did before he did so, and on what basis do you think so?
Originally posted by CalJustHaving read the whole thing, meaning all 66 books, I believe two things are going on here.
I agree that you cannot punish somebody for murder or for theft before the crime is commiitted, even if you knew for sure (assuming you had that sense of pre-cognition) that the person would commit that act.
But I am not sure how that applies here. Do you get the sense [b] from reading the text alone, and with no other information about the speaker th ...[text shortened]... FOREHAND that Abraham would do what he did before he did so, and on what basis do you think so?[/b]
First is yes He knows, and second we choose what we are going to do as we do it. Being
the Alpha and the Omega puts Him outside of "now" which is just a sliver of reality in my
opinion, and a very small sliver. “Now” is so small it isn't even quantifiable with respect to
how large it is, its beginning is no different than its end.
I believe God is the only One that can create a creature with its own will, any other would
just make robots. So when we act we are marching to our choices, and when we read the
end and see that judgment is coming it will be due to things we did, didn't do, and so on.
If we had no choice in any of this, if this were just a play in that we will acting out what is
on the pages, written for us to act out, why judge us as good or bad? The only righteous
reality where we could be freed to make a choice is if we were free to make a choice.
It also shows us how powerful sin is in our lives, its blinding effect in turning evil into
looking like its good, in keeping us chained from actually caring for everyone, into
dividing us up along several different lines, into looking for our own justice instead of
letting God repay since vengeance belongs to Him.