The Moral Argument for God's Existence

@fmf said
Fair enough. And that's the point. You choosing "whose word to take" for it is a subjective thing. Our moral compasses are subjective tools that help guide us through the dilemmas of our everyday lives.

Every choice carries the burden of being reliable or not, fruitful or not. Whatever you put your faith in is going to lead you where you are going, be that your own intuition and knowledge or something else it’s unavoidable.

@kellyjay said
Every choice carries the burden of being reliable or not, fruitful or not. Whatever you put your faith in is going to lead you where you are going, be that your own intuition and knowledge or something else it’s unavoidable.

You are right. And the process is totally subjective.

@dj2becker said
‘Objective’ means ‘not influenced by personal feelings or opinions’.

Not a single word in the Bible was written based on my personal feelings or opinions. In that sense it is an objective standard to me. If the Bible says something I have to accept it regardless of my personal feelings or opinions on the matter.

Not a single word in the Bible was written based on my personal feelings or opinions. In that sense it is an objective standard to me.

The point you disingenuously continue to ignore is the fact that your interpretation of the Bible is VERY subjective. This is underscored by the fact that you are unable to provide an objective standard for interpretation of the Bible,

The Bible very widely open to interpretation. Over the centuries Christians have been on completely opposite sides as to topics such as slavery, capital punishment, race, women, LGBT, etc. The list goes on and on. People interpret the Bible based on their own subjective standard.

No objective standard for interpretation of the Bible. No objective moral standard.

@fmf said
You are right. And the process is totally subjective.

Until a bottom line is encountered.

@kellyjay said
Until a bottom line is encountered.

Sounds like you are speculating here about something occurring after death, so it has no traction with me. Morality, on the other hand, is something that guides our interactions with others ~ obviously ~ while we are living. Its exercise is an inherently subjective faculty that forms part of our human nature. The assembly and content and application of our sense of morality is part of the uniqueness that defines and differentiates each of us as individuals with separate identities [something you might refer to as our "souls"].

@fmf said
Sounds like you are speculating here about something occurring after death, so it has no traction with me. Morality, on the other hand, is something that guides our interactions with others ~ obviously ~ while we are living. Its exercise is an inherently subjective faculty that forms part of our human nature. The assembly and content and application of our sense of morality is pa ...[text shortened]... es each of us as individuals with separate identities [something you might refer to as our "souls"].

As soon as anyone has a choice all choices are speculative, even if you have a
standard that doesn't change simply obeying it is with choice. Where the rubber
meets the road is going to be consequences they can be good or bad, they can
be good or bad immediately or later.

What I find fascinating about mankind is our need to justify one's self for our
own actions, excuses are made. If someone gives their word and they break it
excuses are offered, something new popped up, or the one they gave their word
to wasn't worthy, something typically is always offered.

So speculation alone means we know we need to come up with something, if not
than why bother? We are aware of a universal right and wrong, because we are
always coming up with ways to justify ourselves by ourselves or something else.

@kellyjay said
As soon as anyone has a choice all choices are speculative, even if you have a
standard that doesn't change simply obeying it is with choice. Where the rubber
meets the road is going to be consequences they can be good or bad, they can
be good or bad immediately or later.

What I find fascinating about mankind is our need to justify one's self for our
own actions, excu ...[text shortened]... ong, because we are
always coming up with ways to justify ourselves by ourselves or something else.

This is all subjective. I think you know this. I think we are in agreement.

@kellyjay said
What I find fascinating about mankind is our need to justify one's self for our
own actions, excuses are made. If someone gives their word and they break it
excuses are offered, something new popped up, or the one they gave their word
to wasn't worthy, something typically is always offered.

It's called 'people taking personal responsibility for their actions'.

@kellyjay said
So speculation alone means we know we need to come up with something, if not
than why bother?

If speculating [about everlasting life, the source of morality etc.] means you manage to "come up with something" that answers the "why bother?" question in your life, then good for you. If it also results in you in behaving in a morally sound way, then I welcome this.

@kellyjay said
We are aware of a universal right and wrong, because we are
always coming up with ways to justify ourselves by ourselves or something else.

Cogitating "a universal right and wrong" is an exercise in personal perspective and subjectivity.

@fmf said
It's called 'people taking personal responsibility for their actions'.

Responsibility, that subjective?

@fmf said
If speculating [about everlasting life, the source of morality etc.] means you manage to "come up with something" that answers the "why bother?" question in your life, then good for you. If it also results in you in behaving in a morally sound way, then I welcome this.

Morally sound would be a figment of imagination if its all just a human concept.

@kellyjay said
Morally sound would be a figment of imagination if its all just a human concept.

No, it is real. It is "just a human concept", absolutely so. Moreover, it is a key and indispensable human concept. We are social creatures and it makes our interactions possible. It affects the reality of almost every interaction and relationship. It affects culture and the law. It affects our families, our children, our neighbours, our workmates. It is utterly real. It is not a "figment of the imagination".

@kellyjay said
Responsibility, that subjective?

You said: "What I find fascinating about mankind is our need to justify one's self for our own actions, excuses are made." In other words, what you find fascinating then is simply 'people taking personal responsibility for their actions'.

@fmf said
You said: "What I find fascinating about mankind is our need to justify one's self for our own actions, excuses are made." In other words, what you find fascinating then is simply 'people taking personal responsibility for their actions'.

Which is needed why? If all truth, all reasons are internal, why would anyone
feel the need to justify what they do, they would just do it. It isn't because they
must by law or society justify themselves, but they will. Reasons for actions
especially those we would call bad typically always have some justification. The
need to is because we all have the need to be just, not wrong. As soon as we
use the terms "supposed to", "should have", "that is wrong" we have stated that
there is in the universe a non-subjective standard implying that we are required
to act properly, give our obedience too a standard we should have been aware of.