1. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    25 May '06 00:49
    Genesis only makes sense as a collection of folklore, refurbished mythologys and cultural rules. Any reading of it as literally true is bound to be the genesis of error in doctrine.
    One possible and probable meaning of the Adam and Eve story is it's allegory of the change from a hunter-gatherer culture to an agricultural one.
    The Garden was the range they traveled, the Forbidden fruit was the produce they saw when their travels took them to the farming area of the Sumerians, whose Serpent god enticed them to give up the gathering part. Only when they found they had to use a hoe to till the soil did they realize that farming was hard work .
    Human nature, being what it is, the stories of their ancestors life in the forest changed from the hard hunger-driven search for food to an idyllic lifestyle almost like being children.
    Into this setting came a technological innovation that changed not only farming but began to change the peoples view of god from the bull god that had been around for 10,000 years to a god that had more meaning in their daily life. The name they gave this god , shows both the relevance and the reason for the transition.
    Aleph Lamed means Ox Goad and is pronounced the same as El
  2. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    25 May '06 08:18
    Originally posted by frogstomp

    One possible and probable meaning of the Adam and Eve story is it's allegory of the change from a hunter-gatherer culture to an agricultural one.
    The Greeks had their myth of the golden, silver, bronze and iron ages. If I recall correctly the golden is said to correspond to the hunter gatherer age when people lived off the fruits of the land, eating edible acorns and hallucinogenic mushrooms (amongst other things). Agriculture brings with it property, hence ownership, law and restriction. Wouldn't it make more sense if Eden corresponded with the hunter-gatherer stage?
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    25 May '06 08:45
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Genesis only makes sense as a collection of folklore, refurbished mythologys and cultural rules. Any reading of it as literally true is bound to be the genesis of error in doctrine.
    One possible and probable meaning of the Adam and Eve story is it's allegory of the change from a hunter-gatherer culture to an agricultural one.
    The Garden was ...[text shortened]... nd the reason for the transition.
    Aleph Lamed means Ox Goad and is pronounced the same as El
    Different societies with different cultures such as hunter gatherers and farmers lived side by side in many parts of the world. Also the transition from one to the other is often gradual unless it is forced on a people by conquest.
    However when it comes to genesis you can either take it as the inspired word of God, in which case you will need a Secret Decoder Ring to understand it, or you can take it to be folklore in which case I suspect your explanation for it is merely one of countless posible origins for the story and a highly unlikely one at that.
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    25 May '06 08:49
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    or you can take it to be folklore in which case I suspect your explanation for it is merely one of countless posible origins for the story and a highly unlikely one at that.
    Why do you find this one unlikely, and what other stories do you know of?
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    25 May '06 09:34
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The Greeks had their myth of the golden, silver, bronze and iron ages. If I recall correctly the golden is said to correspond to the hunter gatherer age when people lived off the fruits of the land, eating edible acorns and hallucinogenic mushrooms (amongst other things). Agriculture brings with it property, hence ownership, law and restriction. Wouldn't it make more sense if Eden corresponded with the hunter-gatherer stage?
    Yes, except the future Israelites were quite possibly mercenaries from Syria and/or Canaan, there to help the Sumerians fight off the invasions from Elam. There's still a lot of work to be done along this line.
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    25 May '06 09:37
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Different societies with different cultures such as hunter gatherers and farmers lived side by side in many parts of the world. Also the transition from one to the other is often gradual unless it is forced on a people by conquest.
    However when it comes to genesis you can either take it as the inspired word of God, in which case you will need a Secret De ...[text shortened]... r it is merely one of countless posible origins for the story and a highly unlikely one at that.
    How many have a cylinder seal that depicts a tree, a man, a woman and a serpent?
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    25 May '06 11:13
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Why do you find this one unlikely, and what other stories do you know of?
    The basics of the story are obvious. The garden is what almost anyone would consider a perfect world to be. Our own gardens are our attempts to make nature perfect for us. So the writer wanted people to think the world was created perfect so called it a garden.
    Almost all cultures around the world consider the snake evil in some way. They are also often credited with devious inteligence. So to represent evil coming into the world what better image than the snake, deadly, and able to sneak in unwanted.
    The whole point of the story however is to try to explain the whole perfect God evil world paradox. ie how does a perfect God make a world which contains evil and why punish us by putting us here.
    However it doesnt take much inteligence to realise that the story does not actually explain away the paradox at all but rather is an attempt to hide it or pass it on.
    The story could have had deeper meaning, could have grown and changed over time or could have been invented by one person. Now try to fit Little Red Riding Hood into your hunter gatherer - farmer hypothesis.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    25 May '06 11:231 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Now try to fit Little Red Riding Hood into your hunter gatherer - farmer hypothesis.
    The best interpretation of Red Riding Hood I've heard is the obvious one, that it's about the risk of male sexual predators. It appears in Grimm's Maerchen, not the Bible, although stories of werewolves do go way back.

    There are many interpretations of Adam & Eve & the Serpent, and not all of them are about punishment.
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    25 May '06 12:12
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    The best interpretation of Red Riding Hood I've heard is the obvious one, that it's about the risk of male sexual predators. It appears in Grimm's Maerchen, not the Bible, although stories of werewolves do go way back.

    There are many interpretations of Adam & Eve & the Serpent, and not all of them are about punishment.
    I have not seen a version with werewolves in. My point is that you take a farytale, which seems to be an innocent childrens story, and somehow read something about male sexual predators into it. I cirtainly never thought of it that way and whether the origional writer did we probably will never know. The post which started this thread claimed that his explanation was a 'probable' explanation for a fairytale with out any real evidence that the story doent have far different motives than those chosen by him. He also assumes that it was written by a hebrew, which may or may not be the case.
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    25 May '06 12:251 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have not seen a version with werewolves in. My point is that you take a farytale, which seems to be an innocent childrens story, and somehow read something about male sexual predators into it. I cirtainly never thought of it that way and whether the origional writer did we probably will never know. The post which started this thread claimed that his exp sen by him. He also assumes that it was written by a hebrew, which may or may not be the case.
    The oldest known version of the folktale has the wolf eat Little Red Riding Hood. End of innocence, quite literally. (The hint of ritual transvestism is something for another discussion).

    Here is a tale of a real-life German sexual predator named Peter Stubb, whom credulous folk believed to be a werewolf: http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/werewolf/stubb.html

    I don't think the connection between the folktale and sexual predators is too tenuous.
  11. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    25 May '06 20:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have not seen a version with werewolves in. My point is that you take a farytale, which seems to be an innocent childrens story, and somehow read something about male sexual predators into it. I cirtainly never thought of it that way and whether the origional writer did we probably will never know. The post which started this thread claimed that his exp ...[text shortened]... sen by him. He also assumes that it was written by a hebrew, which may or may not be the case.
    I assume it was written by a proto-Israelite. It's also too close to the exchanging life-styles from hunter-gathering to farming and you are completely wrong about the two cultures living peacefully side-by-side.
    The fact that the Sumerian had a wing-serpent god ought to tell you it was just part of the myths that Abram or some priest made up as an inducement to leave Sumer.
  12. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    26 May '06 00:031 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The basics of the story are obvious. The garden is what almost anyone would consider a perfect world to be. Our own gardens are our attempts to make nature perfect for us. So the writer wanted people to think the world was created perfect so called it a garden.
    Almost all cultures around the world consider the snake evil in some way. They are also often ...[text shortened]... ne person. Now try to fit Little Red Riding Hood into your hunter gatherer - farmer hypothesis.
    btw in the biblical story it was a "serpent" not a snake.

    http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_1d.htm

    http://www.vibrani.com/serpent.htm

    http://www.crystalinks.com/aztecgods.html

    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm

    just a few.
    also there was the protection that this new god offered the people at least the supposed help on the battlefield, not to mention the genocide that this god ordered Joshua to perform , shows that the god of the Israelites was nothing new , or special.
  13. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    27 May '06 20:49
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    btw in the biblical story it was a "serpent" not a snake.

    http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_1d.htm

    http://www.vibrani.com/serpent.htm

    http://www.crystalinks.com/aztecgods.html

    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm

    just a few.
    also there was the protection that this new god offered the people at least the supposed help on th ...[text shortened]... ordered Joshua to perform , shows that the god of the Israelites was nothing new , or special.
    As I have said, the god of the Israelites was just another protector god the ancients used to keep the flock in line.
  14. Standard memberHalitose
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    27 May '06 21:08
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    As I have said, the god of the Israelites was just another protector god the ancients used to keep the flock in line.
    Trying to keep your dying thread going? 😛
  15. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    27 May '06 21:14
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Trying to keep your dying thread going? 😛
    It's like Bruno!
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