The Ox Goad god

Originally posted by gentlegil
The Sumerians

By 7,000 BCE, in what is called the Fertile Crescent, in West Asia, where hunter-gatherers had roamed, planting had grown into the major source of food. There, true farming had begun, with the growing of wheat and barley, the domestication of animals and people permanently settled.

Writing

Sumerian writing is the oldest full-fledged ...[text shortened]... post the link below....lots of reading!

gil

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch01.htm

The Sumerians were amazing people.

Originally posted by gentlegil
The Sumerians

By 7,000 BCE, in what is called the Fertile Crescent, in West Asia, where hunter-gatherers had roamed, planting had grown into the major source of food. There, true farming had begun, with the growing of wheat and barley, the domestication of animals and people permanently settled.

Writing

Sumerian writing is the oldest full-fledged ...[text shortened]... post the link below....lots of reading!

gil

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch01.htm

So where did the idea of monotheism come from? Perhaps from the Sumerian gods?

Originally posted by whodey
So where did the idea of monotheism come from? Perhaps from the Sumerian gods?

Good question.

The earliest known example of monotheism was started up in Egypt by Pharaoh Akhenaten. As for the Hebrews, it seems their religion went through stages, from henotheism to strict monotheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

Originally posted by frogstomp
and here's your god talking :

6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me;
for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I
will destroy them with the earth.

of course he's not Nintur who caused the flood , now is he?
nor is he Enli who spoke to Ziusudra, is he?
What he is though is a god made-up by the israelites, period.

Brilliant scholarship, FS. With a conclusion based on premise and a premise hunting for said conclusion, you have forever put the issue to rest. There is still that sticky problem of getting the rest of the world to agree with you, but congratulations in advance, nonetheless.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Brilliant scholarship, FS. With a conclusion based on premise and a premise hunting for said conclusion, you have forever put the issue to rest. There is still that sticky problem of getting the rest of the world to agree with you, but congratulations in advance, nonetheless.

Again with the ad populum (or whatever) fallacy.

Here is a more scholarly offering from frogstomp's school of thought: http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/flood.htm

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Good question.

The earliest known example of monotheism was started up in Egypt by Pharaoh Akhenaten. As for the Hebrews, it seems their religion went through stages, from henotheism to strict monotheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

So it did not come from Abraham as the Bible indicates as everyone else around him was worshiping various other gods as he lived among the Sumarian culture?

Originally posted by whodey
So it did not come from Abraham as the Bible indicates as everyone else around him was worshiping various other gods as he lived among the Sumarian culture?

Tell me Abram's story in your own words and I'll do my best to answer your question.

Originally posted by frogstomp
The world wide flood never happened and any local flood that the bible talks about happened to the Sumerians since it's their story.

Cultures as far away as Japan and Palau have flood accounts at the hands of the gods. How can so many cultures from so many places WORLD-WIDE have an account of this mythical flood which never took place, especially when these cultures had no interaction at the time when the oral tradition was passed or when it was written down?

speaking of oral tradition, if you discount the use of it, then you are spitting in the face of hundreds of tribes and peoples both historically and currently. there is broad concensus between scholars that oral tradition is almost as viable as written tradition.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Tell me Abram's story in your own words and I'll do my best to answer your question.

Abraham was surrounded by idol worship which even his father took part in. He confronted the notion that the idols had any power and recognized them as mere statues and refused to engage in idol worship. This sparked God's attention and seems to be one of the motivating factors in him being selected by God.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Good question.

The earliest known example of monotheism was started up in Egypt by Pharaoh Akhenaten. As for the Hebrews, it seems their religion went through stages, from henotheism to strict monotheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

If memory serves, Akhenaten was the only pharaoh who attempted to introduce monotheism and was subsequently persecuted severly for this attempt and all memory of him was attempted to be erased.

Originally posted by whodey
Abraham was surrounded by idol worship which even his father took part in. He confronted the notion that the idols had any power and recognized them as mere statues and refused to engage in idol worship. This sparked God's attention and seems to be one of the motivating factors in him being selected by God.

Where did you get this stuff from? The story as I know it is that God told Abram to go somewhere, and Abram went. No mention of idol worshipping at all.

Originally posted by Big Mac
Cultures as far away as Japan and Palau have flood accounts at the hands of the gods. How can so many cultures from so many places WORLD-WIDE have an account of this mythical flood which never took place, especially when these cultures had no interaction at the time when the oral tradition was passed or when it was written down?

Speculation as to the meaning of flood myths is rife. Wikipedia provides a decent overview at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology) .

For the purposes of this discussion, "These myths can be seen metaphorically as a manifestation of the same need of numerous societies to show its population what could happen if they break a certain taboo. The cause of nearly all of these mythical floods was said to be the wickedness of the masses, and the lone survivor would be a man who best exemplified the virtues of whatever culture the myth came from.

(Many flood myths are listed here: http://www.talkorigins.org/pdf/flood-myths.pdf

There is an interesting exception. This is the entry for the !Kung people:
None. The very idea is ridiculous.

Note that the !Kung inhabit the Kalahari desert.)

Originally posted by Big Mac
Cultures as far away as Japan and Palau have flood accounts at the hands of the gods. How can so many cultures from so many places WORLD-WIDE have an account of this mythical flood which never took place, especially when these cultures had no interaction at the time when the oral tradition was passed or when it was written down?

speaking of oral tradition ...[text shortened]... s broad concensus between scholars that oral tradition is almost as viable as written tradition.

The geological evidence is overwhelming that no world wide flood ever happened. Flood stories are common, but not universal and many flood stories that do exist do not have much resemblance to the one presented in the Bible. That being said, I personally think that the basic Flood story is a "proto myth" dating from when early Man all lived in the same geographical area. They then carried this story with them to many other parts of the world though it underwent changes in each culture over time. This seems the most rational explanation that accords with the evidence i.e. myths similar to each other all over the world of an event that never happened (in the scope the myths claim anyway, though primitive Man would have a limited understanding of the "world" so a big flood in his area could be considered a "world wide" one).

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Brilliant scholarship, FS. With a conclusion based on premise and a premise hunting for said conclusion, you have forever put the issue to rest. There is still that sticky problem of getting the rest of the world to agree with you, but congratulations in advance, nonetheless.

You seem more worried about what the rest of the world thinks about your archaic god, than you are about the truth. All that I propose is backed by historical writing of the Sumerians and the Akkadians, all you got is Moses who is supposed to have received the word of god, Moses, I might add, who stole his baby-boat ride from Sargon, King of Akkad.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The geological evidence is overwhelming that no world wide flood ever happened. Flood stories are common, but not universal and many flood stories that do exist do not have much resemblance to the one presented in the Bible. That being said, I personally think that the basic Flood story is a "proto myth" dating from when early Man all lived in the same g ...[text shortened]... tanding of the "world" so a big flood in his area could be considered a "world wide" one).

That being said no1, you do recognize the Sumerian influence in both the Akkadian and the Israelite accounts.
Whether it was just a localized flood or a bunch of localized floods matters not, what does matter is that there was no worldwide flood.