Originally posted by whodeyhere's a clue for you:
Your arguements appear to be fading. What are you talking about?
23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Originally posted by frogstompGive up on attacking the Old Testament did we?
here's a clue for you:
23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Originally posted by frogstompJust think, he could have recited the entire Mosaic law regarding sacrifices and such. Granted, it would have taken him half the day, it is still no excuse. Maybe he left out the entire Mosaic law just for you frogstomp? That way you would not get led astray by his silly teachings that half of mankind sees as insightful and inspired of God.
It's not that I know little of the OT prophecy , it's that all prophecy is crap.
These Commandments???
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adu ...[text shortened]... y mother: and, Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jeez , I thought there were more.
Originally posted by frogstompI did not realize we were playing clue. I liked playing it as a child, but now, I must admitt, it just seems annoying.
here's a clue for you:
23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Originally posted by whodey"Half of mankind" is another fallacious argument , silly man.
Just think, he could have recited the entire Mosaic law regarding sacrifices and such. Granted, it would have taken him half the day, it is still no excuse. Maybe he left out the entire Mosaic law just for you frogstomp? That way you would not get led astray by his silly teachings that half of mankind sees as insightful and inspired of God.
He was asked a specific question and answered it with exactitude.
You must be contending that Christ didn't know the law.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageIt is clear that his main beef is with the Bible and the Christian God. If this was not so, he would not have redirected the debate by attacking Christs teachings and abandoning the original debate. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. I have correctly pointed out that many of the evidences he brings up about Sumeria, which I did not dispute, are then used to form assumptions, for which I do not agree. THere is evidence for what I believe and for what he beleves. This is why belief is such an important element. Belief dictates how one processes data and evidence and then uses them to form conclusions. As I have pointed out, many ancient civilizations desribe a great flood and a creation account. If the Bible is accurate, these ancient civilizations share the same roots and therefore, would have similair accounts as we see today. The fact that the Sumerians have been discovered to have written them down befor any other ancient cultures, does not mean that these accounts originated with them. The assumption is absurd.
Putting a text into an historical perspective constitutes an attack?
Originally posted by whodeydisasters happen and history does repeat it self however here's a version of the biblical flood :
It is clear that his main beef is with the Bible and the Christian God. If this was not so, he would not have redirected the debate by attacking Christs teachings and abandoning the original debate. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. I have correctly pointed out that many of the evidences he brings up about Sumeria, which I did not dispute, are ...[text shortened]... ent cultures, does not mean that these accounts originated with them. The assumption is absurd.
That day Nintur wept over her creatures and holy Inanna was full of grief over their people; but Enki took counsel with his own heart. An, Enlil, Enki, and Ninhursaga had the gods of heaven and earth swear by the names of An and Enlil.
At that time, Ziusudra was king and lustration priest. He fashioned, being a seer, the god of giddiness and stood in awe beside it, wording his wishes humbly.
As he stood there regularly day after day something that was not a dream was appearing: conversation a swearing of oaths by heaven and earth, a touching of throats and the gods bringing their thwarts up to Kiur.
And as Ziusudra stood there beside it, he went on hearing:
"Step up to the wall to my left and listen! Let me speak a word to you at the wall and may you grasp what I say, may you heed my advice! By our hand a flood will sweep over the cities of the half-bushel baskets, and the country; the decision, that mankind is to be destroyed has been made".
A verdict, a command of the assembly cannot be revoked, an order of An and Enlil is not known ever to have been countermanded, their kingship, their term, has been uprooted they must bethink themselves of that. Now... What I have to say to you...
[lost account of Enki's advice to build a boat and load it with pairs of living things, and Ziusudra's compliance]
All the evil winds, all stormy winds gathered into one and with them, then, the flood was sweeping over the cities of the half-bushel baskets for seven days and seven nights. After the flood had swept over the country, after the evil wind had tossed the big boat about on the great waters, the sun came out spreading light over heaven and earth.
Ziusudra then drilled an opening in the big boat.
And the gallant Utu sent his light into the interior of the big boat. Ziusudra, being king, stepped up before Utu kissing the ground before him. The king was butchering oxen, was being lavish with the sheep Barley cakes, crescents together with......he was crumbling for him juniper, the pure plant of the mountains, he filled on the fire and with a ...clasped to the breast he...
[lost account of Enlil's wrath at finding survivor's and his mollification by Enki]
Originally posted by whodeyand another one:
It is clear that his main beef is with the Bible and the Christian God. If this was not so, he would not have redirected the debate by attacking Christs teachings and abandoning the original debate. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. I have correctly pointed out that many of the evidences he brings up about Sumeria, which I did not dispute, are ...[text shortened]... ent cultures, does not mean that these accounts originated with them. The assumption is absurd.
SEGMENT A
approximately 36 lines missing
...... sets up ....... "I will ...... the perishing of my mankind; for Nintud, I will stop the annihilation of my creatures, and I will return the people from their dwelling grounds. Let them build many cities so that I can refresh myself in their shade. Let them lay the bricks of many cities in pure places, let them establish places of divination in pure places, and when the the fire-quenching ...... is arranged, the divine rites and exalted powers are perfected and the earth is irrigated, I will establish well-being there."
After An, Enlil, Enki and Ninhursaja had fashioned the black-headed people, they also made animals multiply everywhere, and made herds of four-legged animals exist on the plains, as is befitting.
approximately 32 lines missing
SEGMENT B
too fragmentary for translation
" I will oversee their labour. Let........ the builder of the Land, dig a solid foundation."
After the ...... of kingship had descended from heaven, after the exalted crown and throne of kingship had descended from heaven, the divine rites and the exalted powers were perfected, the bricks of the cities were laid in holy places, their names were announced and the ...... were distributed. The first of the cities, Eridug, was given to Nudimmud the leader. The second, Bad-tibira, was given to the Mistress. The third, Larag, was given to Pabilsaj. The fourth, Zimbir, was given to hero Utu. The fifth, Curupppag, was given to Sud. And after the name of these cities had been announced and the ...... had been distributed, the river ......, ...... was watered, and with the cleansing of the small canals ...... were established.
approximately 34 lines missing
SEGMENT C
......seat in heaven. ...... flood. ...... mankind. So he made ....... Then Nintud ....... Holy Inana made a lament for its people. Enki took counsel with himself. An, Enlil, Enki and Ninhursaja made all the gods of heaven and earth take an oath by invoking An and Enlil. In those days Zi-ud-sura the king, the gudu priest, ....... He fashioned ....... The humble, committed, reverent ....... Day by day, standing constantly at ....... Something that was not a dream appeared, conversation ......, ...... taking an oath by invoking heaven and earth. In the Ki-ur, the gods ...... a wall. Zi-ud-sura, standing at its side, heard: "Side-wall standing at my left side, ....... Side-wall, I will speak words to you; take heed of my words, pay attention to my instructions. A flood will sweep over the ...... in all the ....... A decision that the seed of mankind is to be destroyed has been made. The verdict, the word of the divine assembly, cannot be revoked. The order announced by An and Enlil cannot be overturned. Their kingship, their term has been cut off; their heart should be rested about this. Now ....... What ......."
approximately 38 lines missing
SEGMENT D
All the windstorms and gales arose together, and the flood swept over the ....... After the flood had swept over the land, and waves and windstorms had rocked the huge boat for seven days and seven nights, Utu the sun-god came out, illuminating heaven and earth. Zi-ud-sura could drill an opening in the huge boat and hero Utu entered the huge boat with his rays. Zi-ud-sura the king prostrated himself before Utu. The king sacrificed oxen and offered innumerable sheep.
too fragmentary for translation
approximately 33 lines missing
SEGMENT E
"They have made you swear by heaven and earth, ....... An and Enlil have made you swear by heaven and earth, ......."
More and more animals disembarked onto the earth. Zi-ud-sura the king prostrated himself before An and Enlil. An and Enlil treated Zi-ud-sura kindly ......, they granted him life like a god, they brought down to him eternal life. At that time, because of preserving the animals and the seed of mankind, they settled Zi-ud-sura the king in an overseas country, in the land Dilmun, where the sun rises.
"You ......."
approximately 39 lines missing
Originally posted by whodeyand here's your god talking :
It is clear that his main beef is with the Bible and the Christian God. If this was not so, he would not have redirected the debate by attacking Christs teachings and abandoning the original debate. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy. I have correctly pointed out that many of the evidences he brings up about Sumeria, which I did not dispute, are ...[text shortened]... ent cultures, does not mean that these accounts originated with them. The assumption is absurd.
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me;
for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I
will destroy them with the earth.
of course he's not Nintur who caused the flood , now is he?
nor is he Enli who spoke to Ziusudra, is he?
What he is though is a god made-up by the israelites, period.
The Sumerians
By 7,000 BCE, in what is called the Fertile Crescent, in West Asia, where hunter-gatherers had roamed, planting had grown into the major source of food. There, true farming had begun, with the growing of wheat and barley, the domestication of animals and people permanently settled.
Writing
Sumerian writing is the oldest full-fledged writing that archaeologists have discovered. The Ubaidians may have introduced the Sumerians to the rudiments of writing and recorded numerical calculation, which the Sumerians used with the rise in trade and to calculate and to keep records of supplies and goods exchanged. The Sumerians wrote arithmetic based on units of ten - the number of fingers on both hands. Concerned about their star-gods, they mapped the stars and divided a circle into units of sixty, from which our own system of numbers, and seconds and minutes, are derived.
A Belief in Spirits
The Sumerians believed that Nammu had created heaven and earth, heaven splitting from earth as being the male god, An, and the earth being a goddess called Ki. They believed that Ki and An had produced a son called Enlil, who was atmosphere, wind and storm. The Sumerians believed that Enlil separated the day from night and that he had opened an invisible shell and let waters fall from the sky. They believed that with his mother, Ki, Enlil set the stage for the creation of plants, humans and other creatures, that he made seeds grow, that he shaped humanity from clay and imbued it, as it states in Genesis 2:7, with "the breath of life."
Conflicts Among the Gods
The Sumerians saw another dispute between the minor gods Emesh (summer) and his brother Enten (winter). Each of these brothers had specific duties in creation - like Cain the farmer and Able the herdsmen. The god Enlil put Emesh in charge of producing trees, building houses, temples, cities and other tasks. Enlil put Enten in charge of causing ewes to give birth to lambs, goats to give birth to kids, birds to build nests, fish to lay their eggs and trees to bear fruit. And the brothers quarreled violently as Emesh challenged Enten's claim to be the farmer god.
A dispute existed also between the god Enki and a mother goddess, Ninhursag - perhaps originally the earth goddess Ki. Ninhursag made eight plants sprout in a divine garden, plants created from three generations of goddesses fathered by Enki. These goddesses were described as having been born "without pain or travail." Then trouble came as Enki ate the plants that Ninhursag had grown. Ninhursag responded with rage. She pronounced a curse of death on Enki, and Enki's health began to fail. Eight parts of Enki's body - one for each of the eight plants that he ate - became diseased, one of which was his rib. The goddess Ninhursag then disappeared so as not let sympathy for Enki change her mind about her sentence of death upon him. But she finally relented and returned to heal Enki. She created eight healing deities - eight more goddesses - one for each of Enki's ailing body parts. And the goddess who healed Enki's rib was Nin-ti, a name that in Sumerian meant "lady of the rib," which describes a character who was to appear in a different role in Hebrew writings centuries later, a character to be called Eve.
Paradise and a Great Flood
Clinging to their belief in the goodness and power of their gods and wondering about their sin and the toil and strife with which they lived, the Sumerians imagined a past in which people lived in a god-created paradise. This was expressed in the same poetic tale that described the conflict between the king of Uruk and the distant town of Arrata - the earliest known description in writing of a paradise and the fall of humankind. The poem describes a period when there were no creatures that threatened people - no snakes, scorpions, hyenas, or lions - a period in which humans knew no terror. There was no confusion among various peoples speaking different languages, with everyone praising the god Enlil in one language. Then, according to the poem, something happened that enraged the god Enki (the god of wisdom and water who had organized the earth in accordance with a general plan laid down by Enlil). The clay tablet on which the poem was written is damaged at this point, but the tablet indicates that Enki found some sort of inappropriate behavior among humans. Enki decided to put an end to the golden age, and in the place of the golden age came conflict, wars and a confusion of languages.
there is another tablet explaining the flood of zuisudra...which has
already been posted above...
A very interesting read.....hopefully I posted things that pertained to
this thread, I'll post the link below....lots of reading!
gil
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch01.htm