The Processed Triune God

Originally posted by whodey
What fallacies are you referring to?

It would appear on the surface that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are different, no? However, does this mean that they are? I do not think so. I believe God to be both a God of love and a righteous judge. However, there appears to be a disconnect between the two because comparing the prior to his birth. This is why he is referred to as the firstborn of all creation.

Do you think that GOD didn't know that Adam was going to sin?

Do you think that if Adam didn't sin then we would have been in heaven now?

Ok ,

In Islam, man is created for two reasons:

1- To worship GOD.
2- To populate earth.

That is all, so man was created to live in earth, and to worship GOD.

002.030
YUSUFALI: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
PICKTHAL: And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
SHAKIR: And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

Edit: What do you mean by destroying the sin? Sin is still here and we all sin, so what actually did Jesus do?

As I told you before , sin doesn't need every thing, because GOD love us and he forgive us if we just ask forgiveness, that is what islam say, "If someone pray to GOD, then he will closer to GOD than his heart" , there is no mediator required.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Do you think that GOD didn't know that Adam was going to sin?

Do you think that if Adam didn't sin then we would have been in heaven now?

Ok ,

In Islam, man is created for two reasons:

1- To worship GOD.
2- To populate earth.

That is all, so man was created to live in earth, and to worship GOD.

[b]002.030
YUSUFALI: Behold, thy Lord sai y to GOD, then he will closer to GOD than his heart" , there is no mediator required.

I don't know what the difference of God knowing Adam would sin has to do with anything. Can you explain? Assuming that we both agree that God did know Adam would sin, are you implying that God wanted Adam to fall? As far as Biblical teaching goes desiring someone to sin is equivaltent to actually sinning. Christ said that if you wish someone dead you have already murdered them in your heart and is also considered a sin. After all, sin brings death so if God wanted Adam to fall then he wanted him to die. Also consider that ALL sin begins in the mind. If you do not respect this fact you will give into sin eventually. Therefore, the mind is the first line of defense.

Would Adam be in heaven if he did not sin? No, he would not have died. Christians do not believe that we will live eternally in heaven, rather, we believe we will be ressurected into a new body and live on a new earth.

Christians view sin as what seperated man from God. Before Adam sinned he communed with God and talked with him daily just as I am talking to you now. So what happened, I ask you? Does God talk to you as he talked with Adam?

As far as Christ conquering sin, nothing can be done to stop you from sinning because we were born with a sin nature and as a result nothing can save our physical bodies from dying becuase of that sin. This is because God told Adam that if you sin you will die, therefore, all men will die once because all men sin at least once. However, does this mean that we cannot combat sin in our lives even though we have fallen in the past? No, it does not. In fact, the Bible does not speak out against those who have sinned and have repented, rather, it speaks out against those who sin and are not repentant and continue to sin habitually. Christ said that he who commits a sin becomes a servant of sin. Many have a tendency to continue to sin even though they may not want to sin. It is like a dog returning to his vomit. However, Christ can break the chains of sins that you have already commited in your life and help you begin a new if you wish. I know because he has done this for me!

So when our physical bodies die what is left? Thankfully we are more than a physical body. We are a triune being like our creator. We have a spiritual man living in our physical bodies that can live forever even though our physical bodies will die. This is what Chrsit came to do and is why he has conquered sin and death for us. This is the good news of the gospel!!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
2nd Chronicles

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
-------------------------------

GOD said about himself that he can't live with men on earth, and you come to say he did.

Who do you want me to belive , you or GOD?

In other words, is not God everywhere at once? Why then is it so hard to consider that God could manifest himself via Christ?

Originally posted by whodey
In other words, is not God everywhere at once? Why then is it so hard to consider that God could manifest himself via Christ?

In other words, is not God everywhere at once?
Jesus said "Luka 11:2: And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. "

And that is what I belive, GOD is not every where at once, GOD is in heavens.

If you want me to belive something else you have to show me where GOD said that he is every where.

Why then is it so hard to consider that God could manifest himself via Christ?

Because he said:

2nd Chronicles

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

And also he said:

I'm GOD not man.

And he said that he doesn't change.

In summery:

1- No place on earth can fit GOD.
2- GOD is not man.
3- GOD doesn't change.
4- GOD is one.

So tell me how can I after that you or me can belive that GOD become a man.

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That is what GOD say about himself in Quran, and that what every Muslim belive about him:

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

112.001
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

112.002
YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him.

Which do you think makes more sense?

Ahosney,

Jesus said "Luka 11:2: And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. "

And that is what I belive, GOD is not every where at once, GOD is in heavens.

If you want me to belive something else you have to show me where GOD said that he is every where.

I have tried to show in this thread that the Triune God has passed through a process in order to dispense Himself into His redeemed people.

This verse in Luke is very good. But you should not selectively ignore other teachings of Christ which complete the whole revelation of God's salvation.

For example the Father in heaven Who Jesus taught us to pray to will also come with and in Christ to make an abode within those who love Jesus:

"Judas. not Isacariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:22,23)

Do you see this? Here is the Divine "WE" - the Father with the Son. The Divine "WE" will come to the one who loves Jesus and will make a dwelling place, a home, within that believer. In this way Jesus will do something to them that He will not do to the world at large. He will "manifest" Himself to His believers.

How does He manifest Himself after His resurrection to His disciples? If they love Him and keep His word He and His Father will come to them and "make an abode with" them.

You have not paid attention to these teachings. The Father in heaven to Whom Christ teaches His disciples to pray, will come with the Son as the divine "WE" and live within the disciples manifesting Christ to them.

So for us followers of Jesus the Father in heaven to Whom we pray is also the Father Who has come to live within us. So Paul says that the Father is in all of the Christians:

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:6)

Did you see that? The Father is not only "over all". He is also "through all" and "in all". That is in all of the believers in Jesus Christ. Since the Divine "We" has come to make an abode in the disciples, He is the Father not only over all but also through and IN all of the believers in Christ.

So we have to open our hearts and let the Father with the Son come to make an abode with us to be the Father in us.

Ahsoney,

=================================
And also he said:

I'm GOD not man.

And he said that he doesn't change.

In summery:

1- No place on earth can fit GOD.
2- GOD is not man.
3- GOD doesn't change.
4- GOD is one.

So tell me how can I after that you or me can belive that GOD become a man.
==================================

My theme here is the Processed Triune God. So I will reply by trying to stick with that theme.

At one point yes, GOD could say "God is not a man ...". But not at every point.

Isaiah's prophecy makes none to us that this God Who is not a man BECAME a man. This prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 informs us that the Mighty God would pass through incarnation to become a little child. And this Eternal Father would pass through a process to become the Son given to us:

"For a CHILD is born to us, a SON is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end ..." (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

There are two lines in this prophecy. The born child is called the Mighty God. That is one line. And the other line is that the given Son is called the Eternal Father.

Birth is of course a process. For the Mighty God to be born a little child is the process of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ. And for the Eternal Father to be given to us as the given Son is also the incarnation of God in the Man Jesus.

When you refer to Chronicles, you should not use it to dispute against Isaiah's prophecy. In the stage of God's process He did become a man.

Now to God Who never changes I say Amen. THough God in His divine charachteristics never changes He did nonetheless cause the Mighty God to be a born child. And He did cause the Eternal Father to come to the earth in the given Son.

So back to John 14:23 - the myasterious and divine "WE" - the Father and the Son in as as the Holy Spirit comes to make an abode with those who love Jesus Christ.

" ... And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (First John 3:24)

When the Spirit comes to us the divine "WE" comes to us. The Holy Spirit comes and brings the Father and the Son into our being.

This is the Triune God having passed through a process in order to dispense Himself to us as life - the eternal life of the Triune God:

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Originally posted by jaywill
Ahosney,

[b]Jesus said "Luka 11:2: And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. "

And that is what I belive, GOD is not every where at once, GOD is in heavens.

If you want me to belive something else you have to show me where GOD sa ather with the Son come to make an abode with us to be the Father in us.

[/b]Do you this, if your interpretation is true (Which I don't think) then it is a very big contradiction. Because GOD said he is in heaven, no place on earth fit him, and he doesn't change.

So either your understanding is incorrect, or the GOD contradict himself (Which of course is not true).

Did you see this:

John 14: 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

It directly follow your verses, and directly state that the target is not the Bond, but to hear the words of the Father (GOD), who send Jesus, as a messanger.

It seems to me that you don't read your book.

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:6)

This is clear that GOD is one. And the GOD is the Father, not the Triune.

Actually it say that the Father is greater than everything else, includeing Jesus and that is what Jesus said himself.

The trinity is not in the Bible, you just make concolusions.

And every where I read the NT I see that Jesus is different than GOD, and he is a man , sent from GOD with a message to Jewish.

Originally posted by jaywill
Ahsoney,

=================================
[b]And also he said:

I'm GOD not man.

And he said that he doesn't change.

In summery:

1- No place on earth can fit GOD.
2- GOD is not man.
3- GOD doesn't change.
4- GOD is one.

So tell me how can I after that you or me can belive that GOD become a man.
========================== ...[text shortened]... une God:

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)[/b]

"For a CHILD is born to us, a SON is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end ..." (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

I don't think the government was upon the shoulders of Jesus.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]"For a CHILD is born to us, a SON is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end ..." (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

I don't think the government was upon the shoulders of Jesus.[/b]

"For a CHILD is born to us, a SON is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end ..." (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

Look it is Christian translation that call him mighty GOD, Eternal Father, but the Jewish one don't.

(If you have ever wondered why the Jewish people have problems with understanding that Isaiah 9:6 [in the Hebrew text] is speaking about the coming Messiah Jesus, here are two reasons: [1] The Septuagint [an ancient translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek] says, "and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him." [2] The 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company translation is close to ours, but the Jewish Publication Society's English translation [1917-1952] says, "...And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom, which has left millions of Jews since 1917 confused because they did not understand Hebrew.)

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/4384.html

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]"For a CHILD is born to us, a SON is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of His government and to His peace there is no end ..." (Isaiah 9:6,7a)

Look it is Christian translation that call him mighty GOD, Eternal Fat cause they did not understand Hebrew.)

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/4384.html[/b]

I don't read ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek. And I suspect that you do not either. So we do have to rely on the integrity of those trained to translate the ancient text.

Now I do know that the Hebrew word PEHLEH (Wonderful) is used to discribe these attributes of God:


something unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to understand,
beyond one's power,
too difficult,
incomprehensible

This Genesis verse illustrates the usage of PEHLEH -

"Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord" (Gen. 18:14)

Again we see PEHLEH used in this way in Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL for me; it is high, I cannot attain to it"

We see PEHLEH used to discribed the Angel of Jehovah's name -

"But the angel of the Lord saidto him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful? (Judges 13:18)

The One in Isaiah is discribed firstly as PEHLEH. He is unto us for our enjoyment and experience. But He is beyond our powers to fully comprehend because He is Wonderful. It is not that this or that is wonderful about Him. The Hebrew translator Franz Deltzsch writes:

"He is first called Wonderful, which means He is incomprehensible to mortal men: He is a phenomenon lying altogether beyond human conception or natural occurence. Not only is this or that wonderful in Him, but He Himself is throughout a wonder."

[Keil and Delizsch, Commentaries on the Old Testament, Isaiah, Vol. I, p. 252]


I do not translate Hebrew into English. But Franz Delizsch was an expert at it. And I have no doubt that the terms "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" there in the passage are identical to those terms used elsewhere.

For example "the Mighty God" is Jehovah God in Jeremiah 32:18 - " ... the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ..."[/b]

In the same book fo Isaiah we are told the God of Israel is the Father whose name is from eternity - "O Jehovah thou art our Father; we the clay ..." (Isa. 64:8) - "For thou art our Father, though Abraham knoweth us not ... thou, O Jehovah, art our Father; our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name" (Isaiah 63:16,17)

If His name is from everlasting then He is called the Everlasting Father of course. Or the Eternal Father. It is no wonder then that for Him to be given to us as as Son and born as a child is PEHLEH -

I think you have no case here. If the child is called the Mighty God it must be because He is the Mighty God. Just as if He is called the Prince of Peace because He is that. If you choose not to call Him the Mighty God and you choose not to call Him the Eternal Father or the Prince of Peace, that is YOUR rebellion and your loss.

But though He is beyond our powers to fully comprehend He is "unto us" for our enjoyment and salvation.

All you have really told me is that this Wonderful One is NOT unto YOU because you refuse Him and will not recognize His nature as God incarnate.

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't read ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek. And I suspect that you do not either. So we do have to rely on the integrity of those trained to translate the ancient text.

Now I do know that the Hebrew word [b]PELEH (Wonderful) is used to discribe these attributes of God:


something unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to under cause you refuse Him and will not recognize His nature as God incarnate.

[/b]I have a case because it is not talking about Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was not a prince, he has no power, and he lived as poor man. he has no government, and there was no peace after him.

So it doesn't match him. That is one point.

I'm don't know hebrew, but Jewish didn't translate it as you do.

So you simply try to make is match your belive while it is not.

If the child is called the Mighty God it must be because He is the Mighty God.

This statment doesn't make sense because the child and father are different. So if you say that, then you have two GODs not one, which is impossible.

The father and the son are different , if you call each one of them GOD then you have two GODs. Is it clear.

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't read ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek. And I suspect that you do not either. So we do have to rely on the integrity of those trained to translate the ancient text.

Now I do know that the Hebrew word [b]PEHLEH (Wonderful) is used to discribe these attributes of God:


something unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to unde cause you refuse Him and will not recognize His nature as God incarnate.

[/b][1] The Septuagint [an ancient translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek] says, "and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."

Did you read this part?

=============================
If the child is called the Mighty God it must be because He is the Mighty God.

This statment doesn't make sense because the child and father are different. So if you say that, then you have two GODs not one, which is impossible.
=============================

"Is anything too hard [PEHLEH] for the Lord?" (Genesis 18:14)


"Such knowledge is too wonderful [PEHLEH] for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it" (Psalm 139:6)

Originally posted by whodey
[b/]I don't know what the difference of God knowing Adam would sin has to do with anything. Can you explain? Assuming that we both agree that God did know Adam would sin, are you implying that God wanted Adam to fall? As far as Biblical teaching goes desiring someone to sin is equivaltent to actually sinning. Christ said that if you wish someone dead you hav ...[text shortened]... to do and is why he has conquered sin and death for us. This is the good news of the gospel!!![/b]

whodey: Christians do not believe that we will live eternally in heaven, rather, we believe we will be ressurected into a new body and live on a new earth.

You do; most Christians don't.

I don't think the government was upon the shoulders of Jesus.


That is because you count His patience with you that you would come to repentence, as His not ruling.

But God desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. You should not count His merciful patience with unrepentent sinners as His weakness to not govern.

The day will come when there will be no more delay in His patience to come into your heart. In this age His governemt begins inwardly. This merciful period for you to repent and be saved will not continue forever.

Don't scoff and say that Christ does not reign. He is giving you time to allow Him to establish His the lordship in your heart in love. Many of us are walking in His kingdom already.