the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you have nothing to say about the content of the text, i would be very much pleased if you would go and either listen to some Julian Bream, calm down, gather your thoughts, whence forth, you will see that it is a triviality with which you concern yourself and unworthy of your attention or hijack someone elses thread, or comment on the content of t ...[text shortened]... doughnuts
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🙂

It's truly remarkable how you seemingly have no integrity. The fact that you compound it by using deception and by making false accusations is mind boggling. Did the "propitiatory sacrifice of the christ" alleviate you of the burden a conscience?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
long winded, dressed up posts, for goodness sake man, Rome was not built in a day. you do not discuss something as fundamental and deep as the propitiatory sacrifice of the Christ in a few words, what do you think it is, a cryptic crossword puzzle?

the answer to your first question is rather easy, it is because blood represents the life and is sa ...[text shortened]... in christian theology you need milk, not solid food!

questions two and three are irrelevant.

Robbie...I have argued this with other people but it seems you merely set god as point of origin for that which is good and conclude that anything which god wants/does is good. This is little more than a tautology.

Thing is, I along with others see no reason to accept that god in his 'holiness' requiring a blood sacrifice should be a good/just thing for any other reason than you, the Bible, other theists say so.
In fact I actually find it's 'requirement quite barbaraic to be honest, and for any claim that I am being pretentious by defining my own morals as being higher than your God's, it remains to be demonstrated that your God's morals are indeed more virtuous than mine.

To put it another way, if you accept that what God does is always good, and then God requires that our sins be repayed by burning alive 10000 babies, then this is must be a good thing!

Yeah but Jesus did not die on the cross did he? An advanced meditator can go so deep that breathing ceases and heart rate drops to nothing and only a modern doctor with modern intruments can tell if he or she is alive. This is a fact. Jesus was taking down from the cross alive and came out of meditation some time later. He then fled to India where he died much later. Christianity is the greatest lie ever inflicted on mankind.

Originally posted by clearlight
Yeah but Jesus did not die on the cross did he? An advanced meditator can go so deep that breathing ceases and heart rate drops to nothing and only a modern doctor with modern intruments can tell if he or she is alive. This is a fact. Jesus was taking down from the cross alive and came out of meditation some time later. He then fled to India where he died much later. Christianity is the greatest lie ever inflicted on mankind.

Why make up such a complicated story? Why not simply disbelieve the basic story given in the Bible? You clearly don't believe a large part of the New Testament, then why believe the whole resurrection piece?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the answer to your first question is rather easy, it is because blood represents the life and is sacred to God, thus, as the dressed up and long winded post states, the life that was fortified because of sin, the perfect life, blood was needed, perfect blood, to fully represent the life that was lost because of sin, is it not too easy, i could cite a ...[text shortened]... in christian theology you need milk, not solid food!

questions two and three are irrelevant.

Do you simply not get what I am asking or are you deliberately avoiding the question? It sounds to me like you are one of those Christians who thinks that preaching eventually converts anyone even if what you are preaching is nonsense or of no interest to the recipient.
I don't at this point want to know why a 'perfect life' was needed or what blood represents to God I initially want to know why anything whatsoever was needed as a sacrifice and whether you actually know the answer to that.
The fact that you did not deny 2)and 3) but rather called them 'irrelevant'. leads me to believe they are correct.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you have nothing to say about the content of the text, i would be very much pleased if you would go and either listen to some Julian Bream, calm down, gather your thoughts, whence forth, you will see that it is a triviality with which you concern yourself and unworthy of your attention or hijack someone elses thread, or comment on the content of t ...[text shortened]... doughnuts
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SOLD AT ASDA SOLD AT ASDA
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🙂

if you have nothing to say about the content of the text

The content of the text is utter garbage. Why not just spare us all the nonsense? The idea that any reasonable system of justice (divine justice, at that) demands or necessitates the blood of innocent(s) is just idiotic. Yeah, okay, God is a blood-lusting, wrathful bastard who would provide for the eternal torment of all those He created if not for the suffering and spilled blood of an innocent. Oh,...but it's His divine nature that necessitates this; it's His unshakable love for us in balance with His unrelenting, perfect justice that demands this. Give me a break. I'm sure you've thought long and hard on this subject; and this piece of ridiculous trash is what you've come to endorse concerning the workings of perfect justice and 'salvation' of the human race?

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And by the way, I don't understand why you still don't get the following point. The problem is not one of "cut and paste" per se: rather, it is one of plagiarism. Feel free to cut and paste if you wish, just cite your source. I mean, what's hard to understand about that? Like I said the last couple of times I caught you lifting, this is taken quite seriously in some circles. So, the fact that you remain inappropriate in your level of responsiveness toward instances of your own making that walk and talk like plagiarism might just be something you live to regret one day, if you happen to venture into such circles. Do I think you have demonstrated egregious behavior through these incidents (such as would be evidenced by the clear motivation to represent such work as wholly your own)? No, I really genuinely do not. I just think you should take steps to develop better habits when you employ the work of others. Fair enough?

Originally posted by Agerg
Robbie...I have argued this with other people but it seems you merely set god as point of origin for that which is good and conclude that anything which god wants/does is good. This is little more than a tautology.

Thing is, I along with others see no reason to accept that god in his 'holiness' requiring a blood sacrifice should be a good/just thing for any ...[text shortened]... that our sins be repayed by burning alive 10000 babies, then this is must be a good thing!

it remains to be demonstrated that your God's morals are indeed more virtuous than mine.

take a look around you, i think that the system in which we live is a clear indication and an evident demonstration of the reality that moral and spiritual independence from God, the denying of universal sovereignty has brought disastrous consequences. How much evidence do you require? What is really interesting is why this is evidently the case, and i would forward the Biblical idea that men were not 'designed' to rule over each other, this is borne out of the following scriptural principles, which i provide simply by way of reference, taken from the book of Ecclesiastes, from Solomon,

Who is there like the wise one? And who is there knowing the interpretation of a thing? The wisdom of a man itself causes his face to shine, and even the sternness of his face is changed for the better.

I say: “Keep the very order of the king, and that out of regard for the oath of God.  Do not hurry yourself, that you may go out from before him. Do not stand in a bad thing. For all that he delights to do he will do,  because the word of the king is the power of control; and who may say to him: ‘What are you doing?’”

He that is keeping the commandment will not know any calamitous thing, and the wise heart will know both time and judgment.  For there exists a time and judgment even for every affair, because the calamity of mankind is abundant upon them.  For there is no one knowing what will come to be, because who can tell him just how it will come to be?

There is no man having power over the spirit to restrain the spirit; neither is there any power of control in the day of death; nor is there any discharge in the war. And wickedness will provide no escape for those indulging in it.

All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his injury.

is it not self evident that man has dominated man to his injury as the wise Solomon states? Why? because it was never intended that men should rule over each other and thus we see the calamitous state of affairs that we are facing today, which i will not reiterate for fear that i may become sullen and depressed!

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]if you have nothing to say about the content of the text

The content of the text is utter garbage. Why not just spare us all the nonsense? The idea that any reasonable system of justice (divine justice, at that) demands or necessitates the blood of innocent(s) is just idiotic. Yeah, okay, God is a blood-lusting, wrathful *** who would provide ...[text shortened]... ake steps to develop better habits when you employ the work of others. Fair enough?[/b]

I have a new stamp for you

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FRAGILE HANDLE WITH CARE
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's truly remarkable how you seemingly have no integrity. The fact that you compound it by using deception and by making false accusations is mind boggling. Did the "propitiatory sacrifice of the christ" alleviate you of the burden a conscience?

I have a new stamp for you

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REJECT REJECT REJECT
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hope you like it, regards Robbie.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you simply not get what I am asking or are you deliberately avoiding the question? It sounds to me like you are one of those Christians who thinks that preaching eventually converts anyone even if what you are preaching is nonsense or of no interest to the recipient.
I don't at this point want to know why a 'perfect life' was needed or what blood repr ...[text shortened]... ot deny 2)and 3) but rather called them 'irrelevant'. leads me to believe they are correct.

the initial text fully explains why a sacrifice was needed, if you do not understand it, tell me which points you are having difficulty with and i may be able to help you, for i have reflected upon your question and can offer no alternative answer, although because of your 'attitude', this may prove to be difficult, for you have so many preconceptions, for example, that I am trying to convert anyone, did i not state that it was simply for information only? what you do with it is up to you? that the text is of no interest, that it makes no sense etc etc

my goodness i went to extensive length for you Whitey and you are really unappreciative the least you can do is be civil.

Originally posted by clearlight
Yeah but Jesus did not die on the cross did he? An advanced meditator can go so deep that breathing ceases and heart rate drops to nothing and only a modern doctor with modern intruments can tell if he or she is alive. This is a fact. Jesus was taking down from the cross alive and came out of meditation some time later. He then fled to India where he died much later. Christianity is the greatest lie ever inflicted on mankind.

Pathetic baseless assertion! for this type of think is fully reminiscent of Ahmadiyya muslim teaching, a branch of Islam I am quite fond of and had a good friend who was a practitioner who lived near my home or possibly the Bhai who also deny the sin atoning ransom sacrifice of the Christ however, it is quite obvious that this statement was not made of your own originality, therefore one must wonder where did you get it? let me ask you this, why was the Christ born of a virgin, if you are Islamic you also believe this to be the case, so tell me why?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the initial text fully explains why a sacrifice was needed, if you do not understand it, tell me which points you are having difficulty with and i may be able to help you, for i have reflected upon your question and can offer no alternative answer, although because of your 'attitude', this may prove to be difficult, for you have so many preconception ...[text shortened]... sive length for you Whitey and you are really unappreciative the least you can do is be civil.

I am not trying to be uncivil, I am merely pointing out that you are going to great lengths to avoid the question, and also posting large quantities of stuff that seems to me to be irrelevant.
I did not see anywhere in any of your posts an answer to my question. I have already asked you to explain to me in simpler words what the explanation is if it is there yet you instead go off on another tack.
As far as I can tell your original posts merely state as fact that God demands payment (in the form of sacrifice) for sins. What it does not explain is why this is the case.
Maybe the problem is that you do not understand what I am asking. What question do you believe you are addressing?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not trying to be uncivil, I am merely pointing out that you are going to great lengths to avoid the question, and also posting large quantities of stuff that seems to me to be irrelevant.
I did not see anywhere in any of your posts an answer to my question. I have already asked you to explain to me in simpler words what the explanation is if it is t ...[text shortened]... is that you do not understand what I am asking. What question do you believe you are addressing?

perhaps i do not understand what you are asking, the question that i thought you were interested in exploring was, 'why was the sacrifice necessary', is this not the case?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
perhaps i do not understand what you are asking, the question that i thought you were interested in exploring was, 'why was the sacrifice necessary', is this not the case?

Not quite. It is "why is any sacrifice necessary?". You are instead assuming that it is obvious what sacrifice is all about and you want to detail why this particular sacrifice worked in a particular way.
You have made vague references to Justice being balance out etc but do not explain the key issue which is how does sacrifice result in justice.

Knightmeister once tried to explain it to me with the analogy of a Judge paying the fine for his son when his son commits a crime but I never quite got it.

take a look around you, i think that the system in which we live is a clear indication and an evident demonstration of the reality that moral and spiritual independence from God, the denying of universal sovereignty has brought disastrous consequences. How much evidence do you require? What is really interesting is why this is evidently the case, and i would forward the Biblical idea that men were not 'designed' to rule over each other, this is borne out of the following scriptural principles, which i provide simply by way of reference, taken from the book of Ecclesiastes, from Solomon.

But I have no reason to accept that your 'moral' God is an improvement, infact you could argue that this God of yours is quite immoral if given he has the potential to change things for the better, he doesn't!
Also, you didn't actually refute the challenge that your God's morals are not better than mine, you instead invoked a vague picture of depravity that exists in the world which can be attributed to the works of *others* with questionable morals, or the fact that it is sometimes a harsh world.

Again, you failed to acknowledge this point that I made in my previous post: you asserting that God requiring X is good by decree means you can substitute anything for X and it must be good!

The substitute for X you have made is *a blood sacrifice for sin*
Someone else could choose *burning babies alive* and contrive some longwinded justification for why God must require this.