the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ

the following is a reply intended for anyone interested in gaining an insight into why the sacrifice of Christ was necessary, what its significance is to Christians and why it propitiated or atoned for sins. I apologize for its length, however, this is a very deep and broad subject for Christians and requires much background information to establish its meaning clearly and unambiguously. Its dedicated to Whitey, an atheist in profession, but a seeker of knowledge never the less!

The Ransom sacrifice of the Christ

Ransom
A price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance. The basic idea of “ransom” is a price that covers (as in payment for damages or to satisfy justice), while “redemption” emphasizes the releasing accomplished as a result of the ransom paid. The most significant ransom price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which made deliverance from sin and death possible for the offspring of Adam.

In the various Hebrew and Greek terms translated “ransom” and “redeem,” the inherent similarity lies in the idea of a price, or thing of value, given to effect the ransom, or redemption. The thought of exchange, as well as that of correspondency, equivalence, or substitution, is common in all. That is, one thing is given for another, satisfying the demands of justice and resulting in a balancing of matters.

A Price That Covers. The Hebrew noun kopher comes from the verb kaphar, meaning, basically, “cover,” as in Noah’s covering the ark with tar. (Ge 6:14) Kaphar, however, is used almost entirely to describe the satisfying of justice through the covering of or atoning for sins. The noun kopher refers to the thing given to accomplish this, the ransom price. (Ps 65:3; 78:38; 79:8, 9) A covering corresponds to the thing it covers, either in its form (as in a material lid, such as the “cover [kapporeth]” of the ark of the covenant; Ex 25:17-22), or in its value (as in a payment to cover the damages caused by an injury).
As a means for balancing justice and setting matters straight with his people Israel, God, in the Law covenant, designated various sacrifices and offerings to atone for, or cover, sins, including those of the priests and the Levites (Ex 29:33-37; Le 16:6, 11), of other individuals, or of the nation as a whole (Le 1:4; 4:20, 26, 31, 35), as well as to purify the altar and tabernacle, making atonement because of the sins of the people surrounding these. (Le 16:16-20) In effect, the life of the animal sacrificed went in place of the life of the sinner, its blood making atonement on Gods altar, that is, to the extent that it could. (Le 17:11; compare Heb 9:13, 14; 10:1-4.) The “day of atonement [yohm hakkippurim]” could just as properly be referred to as the “day of the ransoms.” (Le 23:26-28) These sacrifices were required if the nation and its worship were to have and maintain the acceptance and approval of the righteous God.

Well illustrating the sense of a redeeming exchange is the law regarding a bull known to gore. If the owner allowed the bull to go loose so that it killed someone, the owner was to be put to death, paying for the life of the slain person with his own life. However, since he did not deliberately or directly kill another, if the judges viewed it proper to impose upon him a “ransom [kopher]” instead, then he must pay that redemption price. The sum assessed and paid was viewed as taking the place of his own life and compensating for the life lost. (Ex 21:28-32; compare De 19:21.) On the other hand, no ransom could be accepted for the deliberate murderer; only his own life could cover the death of the victim. (Nu 35:31-33) Evidently because a census involved lives, at the time such was taken each male over 20 had to have a ransom (kopher) of half a shekel given for his soul to God, the same price applying whether the individual was rich or poor.—Ex 30:11-16.
Since any imbalance of justice is displeasing to God, as well as among humans, the ransom, or covering, could have the additional effect of averting or quelling anger. (Compare Jer 18:23; also Ge 32:20, where “appease” translates kaphar.) The husband enraged at the man committing adultery with his wife, however, refuses any “ransom [kopher].” (Pr 6:35) The term may also be used with regard to those who should execute justice but who instead accept a bribe or gift as “hush money [kopher]” to cover over the wrongdoing in their sight.—1Sa 12:3; Am 5:12.

The Redemption, or Releasing. The Hebrew verb padhah means “redeem,” and the related noun pidhyohn means “redemption price.” (Ex 21:30) These terms evidently emphasize the releasing accomplished by the redemption price, while kaphar places stress on the quality or content of the price and its efficacy in balancing the scales of justice. The releasing, or redeeming (padhah), may be from slavery (Le 19:20; De 7:8), from other distressing or oppressive conditions (2Sa 4:9; Job 6:23; Ps 55:18), or from death and the grave. (Job 33:28; Ps 49:15) Frequent reference is made to Gods redeeming the nation of Israel from Egypt to be his “private property” (De 9:26; Ps 78:42) and to his redeeming them from Assyrian and Babylonian exile many centuries later. (Isa 35:10; 51:11; Jer 31:11, 12; Zec 10:8-10) Here, too, the redemption involved a price, an exchange. In redeeming Israel from Egypt, God evidently caused the price to be paid by Egypt. Israel was, in effect, God’s “firstborn,” and God warned Pharaoh that his stubborn refusal to release Israel would cause the life of Pharaohs firstborn and the firstborn of all Egypt, human and animals, to be exacted. (Ex 4:21-23; 11:4-8) Similarly, in return for Cyrus overthrow of Babylon and his liberation of the Jews from their exiled state, God gave “Egypt as a ransom [form of kopher] for [his people], Ethiopia and Seba” in their place. The Persian Empire thus later conquered those regions, and so ‘national groups were given in place of the Israelites souls. (Isa 43:1-4) These exchanges are in harmony with the inspired declaration that the “wicked is [or serves as] a ransom [kopher] for the righteous one; and the one dealing treacherously takes the place of the upright ones.”—Pr 21:18.

Another Hebrew term associated with redemption is 'gaal';, and this conveys primarily the thought of reclaiming, recovering, or repurchasing. (Jer 32:7, 8) Its similarity to [padhah] is seen by its parallel use with that term at Hosea 13:14: “From the hand of Sheol I shall redeem [form of padhah] them; from death I shall recover [form of gaal] them.” (Compare Ps 69:18.) Gaal gives emphasis to the right of reclaiming or repurchasing, either by a near kinsman of a person whose property or whose very person needed to be repurchased or reclaimed, or by the original owner or seller himself. A near kinsman, called a goel, was thus “a repurchaser” (Ru 2:20; 3:9, 13) or, in cases where a murder was involved, a “blood avenger.”—Nu 35:12.

The Law provided that in the case of a poor Israelite whose circumstances forced him to sell his hereditary lands, his city house, or even to sell himself into servitude, “a repurchaser closely related to him,” or goel, had the right to “buy back [gaal] what his brother sold,” or the seller could do so himself if funds became available to him. (Le 25:23-27, 29-34, 47-49; compare Ru 4:1-15.) If a man should make a vow offering to God of a house or a field and then desire to buy it back, he had to pay the valuation placed on the property plus a fifth in addition to that estimated value. (Le 27:14-19) However, no exchange could be made for anything “devoted to destruction.”—Le 27:28, 29.

In the case of murder, the murderer was not allowed sanctuary in the appointed cities of refuge but, after the judicial hearing, was turned over by the judges to the “avenger [goel] of blood,” a near kinsman of the victim, who then put the murderer to death. Since no “ransom [kopher]” was allowed for the murderer and since the near kinsman with right of repurchase could not reclaim or recover the life of his dead relative, he rightfully claimed the life of the one who had taken his relative’s life by murder.—Nu 35:9-32; De 19:1-13.

continued...

Not Always a Tangible Price. As has been shown, God “redeemed” (padhah) or ‘reclaimed’ (gaal) Israel from Egypt. (Ex 6:6; Isa 51:10, 11) Later, because the Israelites kept “selling themselves to do what was bad” (2Ki 17:16, 17), God on several occasions ‘sold them into the hands of their enemies.’ (De 32:30; Jg 2:14; 3:8; 10:7; 1Sa 12:9) Their repentance caused him to buy them back, or reclaim them, out of distress or exile (Ps 107:2, 3; Isa 35:9, 10; Mic 4:10), thereby performing the work of a Goel, a Repurchaser related to them inasmuch as he had espoused the nation to himself. (Isa 43:1, 14; 48:20; 49:26; 50:1, 2; 54:5-7) In ‘selling’ them, God was not paid some material compensation by the pagan nations. His payment was the satisfaction of his justice and the fulfillment of his purpose to have them corrected and disciplined for their rebellion and disrespect.—Compare Isa 48:17, 18.

God’s ‘repurchasing’ likewise need not involve the payment of something tangible. When God repurchased the Israelites exiled in Babylon, Cyrus willingly liberated them, without tangible compensation. However, when redeeming his people from oppressor nations that had acted with malice against Israel, God exacted the price from the oppressors themselves, making them pay with their own lives. (Compare Ps 106:10, 11; Isa 41:11-14; 49:26.) When his people were sold to pagan nations, they received “nothing” from their enslavers in the way of true benefit or relief, and God therefore needed to make no payment to their captors to balance matters out. Instead, he effected the repurchase through the power of “his holy arm.”—Isa 52:3-10; Ps 77:14, 15.

Gods role of 'Goel'; thus embraced the avenging of wrongs done to his servants and resulted in the sanctifying and vindicating of his own name against those who used Israels distress as an excuse to reproach him. (Ps 78:35; Isa 59:15-20; 63:3-6, 9) As the Great Kinsman and Redeemer of both the nation and its individuals, he conducted their “legal case” to effect justice.—Ps 119:153, 154; Jer 50:33, 34; La 3:58-60; compare Pr 23:10, 11.

Though living before and outside the nation of Israel, the disease-stricken Job said: “I myself well know that my redeemer is alive, and that, coming after me, he will rise up over the dust.” (Job 19:25; compare Ps 69:18; 103:4.) Following God’s own example, Israel’s king was to act as a redeemer in behalf of the lowly and poor ones of the nation.—Ps 72:1, 2, 14.

Christ Jesus’ Role as Ransomer. The foregoing information lays the basis for understanding the ransom provided for humankind through God’s Son, Christ Jesus. Mankind’s need for a ransom came about through the rebellion in Eden. Adam sold himself to do evil for the selfish pleasure of keeping continued company with his wife, now a sinful transgressor, so he shared the same condemned standing with her before God. He thereby sold himself and his descendants into slavery to sin and to death, the price that God’s justice required. (Ro 5:12-19; compare Ro 7:14-25.) Having possessed human perfection, Adam lost this valuable possession for himself and all his offspring.

The Law, which had “a shadow of the good things to come,” provided for animal sacrifices as a covering for sin. This, however, was only a symbolic or token covering, since such animals were inferior to man; hence, it was “not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats [actually] to take sins away,” as the apostle points out. (Heb 10:1-4) Those pictorial animal sacrifices had to be without blemish, perfect specimens. (Le 22:21) The real ransom sacrifice, a human actually capable of removing sins, must therefore also be perfect, free from blemish. He would have to correspond to the perfect Adam and possess human perfection, if he were to pay the price of redemption that would release Adam’s offspring from the debt, disability, and enslavement into which their first father Adam had sold them. (Compare Ro 7:14; Ps 51:5.) Only thereby could he satisfy God’s perfect justice that requires like for like, a ‘soul for a soul.’—Ex 21:23-25; De 19:21.

The strictness of God’s justice made it impossible for mankind itself to provide its own redeemer. (Ps 49:6-9) However, this results in the magnifying of God’s own love and mercy in that he met his own requirements at tremendous cost to himself, giving the life of his own Son to provide the redemption price. (Ro 5:6-8) This required his Sons becoming human to correspond to the perfect Adam. God accomplished this by transferring his Son’s life from heaven to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary. (Lu 1:26-37; Joh 1:14) Since Jesus did not owe his life to any human father descended from the sinner Adam, and since God’s holy spirit ‘overshadowed’ Mary, evidently from the time she conceived until the time of Jesus’ birth, Jesus was born free from any inheritance of sin or imperfection, being, as it were, “an unblemished and spotless lamb,” whose blood could prove to be an acceptable sacrifice. (Lu 1:35; Joh 1:29; 1Pe 1:18, 19) He maintained that sinless state throughout his life and thus did not disqualify himself. (Heb 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 2:22) As a ‘sharer of blood and flesh,’ he was a near kinsman of mankind and he had the thing of value, his own perfect life maintained pure through tests of integrity, with which to repurchase mankind, emancipate them.—Heb 2:14, 15.

The Christian Greek Scriptures make clear that the release from sin and death is indeed by the paying of a price. Christians are said to be “bought with a price” (1Co 6:20; 7:23), having an “owner that bought them” (2Pe 2:1), and Jesus is presented as the Lamb who ‘was slaughtered and with his blood bought persons for God out of every tribe, tongue, and nation.’ (Re 5:9) In these texts the verb agorazo is used, meaning simply “buy at the market [agora].” The related exagorazo (release by purchase) is used by Paul in showing that Christ released “by purchase those under law” through his death on the stake. (Ga 4:5; 3:13) But the thought of redemption or ransoming is more frequently and more fully expressed by the Greek ly′tron and related terms.

Lytron (from the verb lyo, meaning “loose&rdquo😉 was especially used by Greek writers to refer to a price paid to ransom prisoners of war or to release those under bond or in slavery. (Compare Heb 11:35.) In its two Scriptural occurrences it describes Christs giving “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28; Mr 10:45) The related word antilytron appears at 1 Timothy 2:6. Parkhurst’s Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament says it means: “a ransom, price of redemption, or rather a correspondent ransom.” He quotes Hyperius as saying: “It properly signifies a price by which captives are redeemed from the enemy; and that kind of exchange in which the life of one is redeemed by the life of another.” He concludes by saying: “So Aristotle uses the verb [antilytroo] for redeeming life by life.” (London, 1845, p. 47) Thus Christ “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1Ti 2:5, 6) Other related words are lytroomai, “loose by ransom” (Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:18, 19), and apoytrosis, “a releasing by ransom.” (Eph 1:7, 14; Col 1:14) The similarity of the usage of these words with that of the Hebrew terms considered is evident. They describe, not an ordinary purchase or releasing, but a redeeming or ransoming, a deliverance effected by payment of a corresponding price.

Though available to all, Christs ransom sacrifice is not accepted by all, and “the wrath of God remains” upon those not accepting it, as it also comes upon those who first accept and then turn away from that provision. (Joh 3:36; Heb 10:26-29; contrast Ro 5:9, 10.) They gain no deliverance from the enslavement to Kings Sin and Death. (Ro 5:21) Under the Law the deliberate murderer could not be ransomed. Adam, by his willful course, brought death on all mankind, hence was a murderer. (Ro 5:12) Thus, the sacrificed life of Jesus is not acceptable to God as a ransom for the sinner Adam. There is no biblical record of Adam ever having repented.

But God is pleased to approve the application of the ransom to redeem those of Adam’s offspring who avail themselves of such a release. As Paul states, “as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person many will be constituted righteous.” (Ro 5:18, 19) At the time of Adams sin and his being sentenced to death, his offspring or race were all unborn in his loins and so all died with him. (Compare Heb 7:4-10.) Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45), had a race or offspring unborn in his loins, and when he died innocently as a perfect human sacrifice this potential human race died with him. He had willingly abstained from producing a family of his own by natural procreation. Instead, Jesus uses the authority granted by God on the basis of his ransom to give life to all those who accept this provision.—1Co 15:45; compare Ro 5:15-17.

Thus, Jesus was indeed “a corresponding ransom,” not for the redemption of the one sinner, Adam, but for the redemption of all mankind descended from Adam. He repurchased them so that they could become his family, doing this by presenting the full value of his ransom sacrifice to the God of absolute justice in heaven. (Heb 9:24) Messianic prophecies also show he will have “offspring” as an “Eternal Father.” (Isa 53:10-12; 9:6, 7) The entire arrangement manifests Gods wisdom and his righteousness in perfectly balancing the scales of justice while showing undeserved kindness and forgiving sins.—Ro 3:21-26.

😲

You have essentially explained (in an unnecessarily large number of words) that God has a system whereby sins must be paid for. I already knew that.
What I do not understand and what no Christian has been able to explain to me is why such a system exists. It seems to be assumed that the system is known to exist and that it makes some sort of sense that does not require explanation.
Am I correct that you simply do not know why it is, but simply take it on faith that it is so?

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have essentially explained (in an unnecessarily large number of words) that God has a system whereby sins must be paid for. I already knew that.
What I do not understand and what no Christian has been able to explain to me is why such a system exists. It seems to be assumed that the system is known to exist and that it makes some sort of sense that ...[text shortened]...
Am I correct that you simply do not know why it is, but simply take it on faith that it is so?

no, you have misunderstood the text, for not only does it explain the intricacies of 'the system', as you call, and the extensive text was necessary to provide comprehensive details to the most important question, which was why 'the system', was necessary, and until you understand this all else is mere window dressing!

Originally posted by twhitehead
You have essentially explained (in an unnecessarily large number of words) that God has a system whereby sins must be paid for. I already knew that.
What I do not understand and what no Christian has been able to explain to me is why such a system exists. It seems to be assumed that the system is known to exist and that it makes some sort of sense that ...[text shortened]...
Am I correct that you simply do not know why it is, but simply take it on faith that it is so?

Perhaps you find such a system makes no sense simply because it makes no sense.

Rather than follow the teachings of others, one should follow the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Jesus simply taught that by following His teachings, one can be made free from sin. Free from committing sin.

Does the system taught by Jesus make more sense to you?

Truth is elegant in its simplicity. The Truth will make you free.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps you find such a system makes no sense simply because it makes no sense.

Rather than follow the teachings of others, one should follow the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, [b]"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth w ...[text shortened]... more sense to you?

Truth is elegant in its simplicity. The Truth will make you free.

I don't get it. I never have understood that way of thinking. Christians still sin that's obvious. I guess the difference is they are not charged with the offense like the rest of us non Christians. They have been forgivin, and I have not been forgivin because it makes no sense to me, and I must pay for that non understanding.
It's really a wacked out way of viewing the world ,and the nature of a God. It's so Bronze Age in it's thinking that it's freightening. How did Christianity ever get off the ground to begin with ? I guess if the Mormons got their insane ball rolling anybody can start a religion, and make a success out it. Scientology for example is a modern day hype calling itself a religion. I should start one. A lot of money is to had.

Originally posted by buckky
I don't get it. I never have understood that way of thinking. Christians still sin that's obvious. I guess the difference is they are not charged with the offense like the rest of us non Christians. They have been forgivin, and I have not been forgivin because it makes no sense to me, and I must pay for that non understanding.
It's really a wacked out way ...[text shortened]... a modern day hype calling itself a religion. I should start one. A lot of money is to had.

Perhaps a large part of the reason that "Christians still sin" is because they don't even believe in the teachings of Jesus. Rather they choose to believe in things such as "the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ".

With the teachings of Jesus there is no "eternal get out of jail free card" as He stated in the passage from John I cited above:
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever."

Or in this passage:
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps a large part of the reason that "Christians still sin" is because they don't even believe in the teachings of Jesus. Rather they choose to believe in things such as "the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ".

With the teachings of Jesus there is no "eternal get out of jail free card" as He stated in the passage from John I cited above:
"...e will tell them,'I never knew you. [b]Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

are we to understand that you are denying the the central tenet of Christianity?

i do not know if you are aware of the fact, yes that is correct, THE FACT, that while we are in a state of imperfection, it is quite impossible not to sin, yes impossible. the apostle Paul makes reference to this or did you never read

I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me.  I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within,  but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sins law that is in my members.  Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death?  Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to Gods law, but with my flesh to sins law.- Romans 7:21-25

do you not recognize that every Christian, has a personal battle against 'sins law' because we are offspring of Adam and suffer the consequences of Adamic sin and that in order to make propitiation for these sins, a person must approach God, through the Christ, on the basis of his 'sin atoning sacrifice?

the type of thinking that is contrary to this produces persons which demonstrate their lack of understanding of the propitiatory sacrifice of the Christ by displaying a self righteous attitude which is about as far away from the Christ as you can get! and these are the ones which demonstrate their iniquity by denying the propitiatory sacrifice, the very reason Christ manifested himself as a man in the first place.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps you find such a system makes no sense simply because it makes no sense.

Rather than follow the teachings of others, one should follow the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth w more sense to you?

Truth is elegant in its simplicity. The Truth will make you free.

absolute garbage and unworthy of further comment.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps a large part of the reason that "Christians still sin" is because they don't even believe in the teachings of Jesus. Rather they choose to believe in things such as "the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ".

With the teachings of Jesus there is no "eternal get out of jail free card" as He stated in the passage from John I cited above:
"...e will tell them,'I never knew you. [b]Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

perhaps you will tell the forum what the will of the father is? no no, let me do it for you, for you cannot be trusted, the Word of God states, ' but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.', " 2 Peter 3:9, now if we are not under the influence of sin, if we are perfect and free of sin, why would it be Gods will that we attain to repentance, for if we are free of sin, we have no need of repentance, have we? thus one simple truth absolutely contradicts this type of Pharisaical self righteousness that states we are free from sin and further to that, the scriptures state, in a crystal clear fashion, that the 'wages of sin is death', if we were free from sin, we would not die? anyone here feel like they are free of sin and thus cannot die?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no, you have misunderstood the text, for not only does it explain the intricacies of 'the system', as you call, and the extensive text was necessary to provide comprehensive details to the most important question, which was [b]why 'the system', was necessary, and until you understand this all else is mere window dressing![/b]

I read the whole lot through and I did not see the explanation. Are you able to summarize it or point me to where you explained it? Most of your text appeared to be a case of you saying "this is the system and let me give you examples to prove it".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
are we to understand that you are denying the the central tenet of Christianity?

i do not know if you are aware of the fact, yes that is correct, THE FACT, that while we are in a state of imperfection, it is quite impossible not to sin, yes impossible. the apostle Paul makes reference to this or did you never read

I find, then, this law in my ropitiatory sacrifice, the very reason Christ manifested himself as a man in the first place.

I'm well aware of this claim by Paul. I see no reason to place the words of Paul above the teachings of Jesus. Jesus clearly states, "If you continue in My word...the truth will make you free....everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin...if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." Jesus says that following His word will make you FREE from committing sin. Not the word of Paul. Not the word of the Bible. The word of Jesus.

Perhaps you should consider that my position is fully supported by the words of Jesus. Your position is not. You have to look to Paul. I can understand the attraction of the words of Paul. It's much easier path to find and follow. The gate of Paul is wide while the gate of Jesus is narrow.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
perhaps you will tell the forum what the will of the father is? no no, let me do it for you, for you cannot be trusted, the Word of God states, ' but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.', " 2 Peter 3:9, now if we are not under the influence of sin, if we are perfect and free rom sin, we would not die? anyone here feel like they are free of sin and thus cannot die?

"now if we are not under the influence of sin, if we are perfect and free of sin, why would it be Gods will that we attain to repentance, for if we are free of sin, we have no need of repentance, have we?"

Sorry, but this makes little sense. Perhaps you misunderstood my post. True repentance entails the turning away from sin. Jesus states that following His teachings will free you from committing sin once you "know the truth." I don't see a problem here.

"the scriptures state, in a crystal clear fashion, that the 'wages of sin is death', if we were free from sin, we would not die? anyone here feel like they are free of sin and thus cannot die?"

C'mon this is pretty cheap. I have to think that you know as well as I do that "death" is a metaphor for a life of sin which is not life at all.

Once again:
"Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm well aware of this claim by Paul. I see no reason to place the words of Paul above the teachings of Jesus. Jesus clearly states, "If you continue in My word...the truth will make you free....everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin...if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." Jesus says that following His word will make you FREE from com gh it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who

Sorry, but as far as I am aware, 'all scripture is inspired of God', 2 Timothy, 3:15,16, yes that is correct 'all scripture', and as i have no reason to doubt Paul, Peter, John nor any of the other ancient servants of God, who were inspired by Holy Spirit to write the Scriptures under inspiration, i must dismiss your objections of his words as baseless and nothing more than the product of an agenda of seeking to establish your own ideas above those of scripture! for your statement makes this quite self evident! Nor is it limited to the words of Paul,

(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.

(Romans 3:9) What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

(Isaiah 64:6) And we become like someone unclean, all of us, and all our acts of righteousness are like a garment for periods of menstruation; and we shall fade away like leafage, all of us, and our errors themselves will carry us away just like a wind.


perhaps it is a failure on your part to understand the nature of sin and its meaning, for if you were able, you would not be uttering empty words nor giving credence to particular aspects of the Biblical cannon while at the same time dismissing others simply because it contradicts your own agenda! Christ came to die for righteous persons or sinners? Perhaps you have forgotten this?

(Isaiah 61:1) The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening of the eyes even to the prisoners;

(Matthew 9:12) Hearing them, he said: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do.

(Mark 2:17) Upon hearing this Jesus said to them: “Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

(Luke 5:31) In reply Jesus said to them: “Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but those who are ailing do.

(Luke 19:10) For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

(1 Timothy 1:15) Faithful and deserving of full acceptance is the saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.

I will produce clear information on a separate thread for those who are interested in understanding the meaning of sin, why it occurs, why Christs sacrifice is important! how we can overcome itas effects to the best of our abilitty, How Christ can help us in this regard!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Sorry, but as far as I am aware, 'all scripture is inspired of God', 2 Timothy, 3:15,16, yes that is correct 'all scripture', and as i have no reason to doubt Paul, Peter, John nor any of the other ancient servants of God, who were inspired by Holy Spirit to write the Scriptures under inspiration, i must dismiss your objections of his words as basele ...[text shortened]... he saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.[/b]

"death" is a metaphor for a life of sin

why is it a metaphor for sin, ah yes, because it suits your agenda, how silly of me!