08 Apr 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Agergyou have no reason, for you are unaware of the reasons otherwise you would not have uttered your statement. it is very simple and almost incredulous that you have made this statement. take for example the mismanagement of the earths resources, because of greed and exploitation, if on the other hand Gods original purpose for the earth had been taken into consideration, that being to take care of it and cultivate it, this would not have happened, the same goes for morality on war, that it is unacceptable, on abortion, that it is unacceptable etc etc etc thus quite clearly Gods 'morality', is evidently superior to that of humans as is demonstrated by the present crisis the earth is facing! what will it take before you realize this? either you are being unreasonable or are unaware, who can tell?
take a look around you, i think that the system in which we live is a clear indication and an evident demonstration of the reality that moral and spiritual independence from God, the denying of universal sovereignty has brought disastrous consequences. How much evidence do you require? What is really interesting is why this is evidently the case, and i woul g babies alive* and contrive some longwinded justification for why God must require this.[/b]
08 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut one would assume that your God is not so ignorant as to have been blindsided by the fact that some humans will be greedy (far greedier than others).
you have no reason, for you are unaware of the reasons otherwise you would not have uttered your statement. it is very simple and almost incredulous that you have made this statement. take for example the mismanagement of the earths resources, because of greed and exploitation, if on the other hand Gods original purpose for the earth had been taken ...[text shortened]... take before you realize this? either you are being unreasonable or are unaware, who can tell?
Hence your God by it's inaction is making an example out of those who suffer (and in no position to change this) in order to demonstrate that we (the fortunate) are f***ing up his planet by our (collective) actions. This is morally contemptable!
08 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Agergno its not morally contemptible at all, the issue has been raised, humans are better off morally independent from God, ok, how could this be demonstrated? the simple yet brilliantly effective answer, let time pass, this will demonstrate, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that humans are/are not better off, by virtue of their moral independence from God. Not only that, he has provided clear, unambiguous counsel and guidance, in the form of a book, available to 95% of the population, it has been ignored! he sent prophets and messengers, ambassadors of a message of reconciliation, they were contemptuously treated, his own son, who was treated with disdain and continues to be so, again with a message of reconciliation, ignored! no quite the contrary, God has not been inactive, quite the opposite. This is not a case of making an example, its a case of gathering evidence, incontrovertible evidence, that humans are not better off, morally independent from God! if you can produce any evidence to the contrary, then let it be heard, for I will state it once again, the present system of things in which we live, is an evident demonstration of this reality!
But one would assume that your God is not so ignorant as to have been blindsided by the fact that some humans will be greedy (far greedier than others).
Hence your God by it's inaction is making an example out of those who suffer (and in no position to change this) in order to demonstrate that we (the fortunate) are f***ing up his planet by our (collective) actions. This is morally contemptable!
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe vast majority of human suffering is due to various facts of nature - disease, natural disasters etc that has nothing to do with human actions. Surely either God put those in place or at a minimum could have avoided them?
you have no reason, for you are unaware of the reasons otherwise you would not have uttered your statement. it is very simple and almost incredulous that you have made this statement. take for example the mismanagement of the earths resources, because of greed and exploitation, if on the other hand Gods original purpose for the earth had been taken ...[text shortened]... take before you realize this? either you are being unreasonable or are unaware, who can tell?
Or are you one of those Christians who thinks that earthquakes and tsunamis are caused by sin?
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThis may only be coincidence, but the most dishonest people I've come across have all believed in "the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ." Perhaps it's because they don't take responsibility for their actions.----ToO-----
[b]"If you had the humility to admit this mistake then all would be well, but no!, for it takes humility and honesty to admit ones mistakes!"
Listen, all I did was make the suggestion that you cite your sources. If you were honest, you would have admitted your negligence and that would have been the end of it. Instead you started a now lengthy stre ...[text shortened]... he christ." Perhaps it's because they don't take responsibility for their actions.[/b]
It's not a coincidence. You actively seek out Christians , play mind games with them , refuse to play fair by pretending you are not having a debate when you are , expect them to answer your questions but won't answer their questions ----and then , when they finally get frustrated with you , you can then accuse them of dishonesty and lying.
It's a basic set up job. It's a grand game that you play in order to prove something to yourself. You go into debate after debate with the latest new "victim" trying to goad them into a behaviour that you hope will prove to you that your intial assumption was right all along. The problem is that when you get asked awkward questions you don't address them.
You start with the belief that Christians are liars and are dishonest and guess what - you end up proving it to yourself. It's a clever game and when someone like me calls you out on it you refuse to respond to them because you know you have been sussed out. It's no coincidence this happens because the common denominator in this is you. You are creating the very confirmation of your own assumptions. It's you that is not genuine - that's why you see lies everywhere around you. It's the world you inhabit yourself.
It's you that needs to own this for yourself. The dishonesty you keep "finding" lives within you.
(BTW- I challenge you to name a single person living or dead who has repented and committed to Jesus and then has never sinned again - if you can't think of anyone at all then you only have 3 options
1) Jesus was mistaken in the verses on sin and didn't understand human nature
2) The whole of humanity just isn't trying hard enough and not one single person has been able to live sinlessly (yet)
3) ThinkOfOne perceptions are skewed and there is a very different way of looking at things.
Right now 3 looks the most likely to me )
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by knightmeisterThere is of course 4) Jesus never said those things in the first place.
BTW- I challenge you to name a single person living or dead who has repented and committed to Jesus and then has never sinned again - if you can't think of anyone at all then you only have 3 options
I challenge you to tell me what sin is committed by people who repent on their death beads then die minutes later.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadwrong, it is all directly traceable in one way or another to the rebellion in the Garden of Eden and the consequence of moral independence from God, because sickness, death, disease are all the results of imperfection, war, etc are all the results of ignoring Gods principles, deny it you cannot.
The vast majority of human suffering is due to various facts of nature - disease, natural disasters etc that has nothing to do with human actions. Surely either God put those in place or at a minimum could have avoided them?
Or are you one of those Christians who thinks that earthquakes and tsunamis are caused by sin?
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadthats right, he was a fictitious character, who , unlike the x-men, speedy gonzalez, bugs bunny and daffy duck, just happened to have the most profound and far reaching influence of any known teacher, then or since, not bad for a fictitious character!
There is of course 4) Jesus never said those things in the first place.
I challenge you to tell me what sin is committed by people who repent on their death beads then die minutes later.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRabbie my trusty feer,
continued...
[b]Not Always a Tangible Price. As has been shown, God “redeemed” (padhah) or ‘reclaimed’ (gaal) Israel from Egypt. (Ex 6:6; Isa 51:10, 11) Later, because the Israelites kept “selling themselves to do what was bad” (2Ki 17:16, 17), God on several occasions ‘sold them into the hands of their enemies.’ (De 32:30; Jg 2:14; 3:8; 10:7; ...[text shortened]... the scales of justice while showing undeserved kindness and forgiving sins.—Ro 3:21-26.
😲[/b]
The man-made (surprise surprise!) concept of Sacrifice, Jesus’ sacrifice included, is universal, and it is used in order to offer a notion about the essence of the Balance of the Physical and Mental world (QBLH, Mind-Only etc) alike. I think that the interpretation you offer is clearly a product of your theology; now I will offer a different approach.
The universal concept of Sacrifice as it is conceived by the Western and the Eastern meditators is related to the transformation of the fields of the Differ Forces into the field of the Differ Shapes. This is the reason why QBLH (the Bible is a kabalistic text afterall) sees Tipharet as a “Child” according to the level of Keter (Lux Interna), and as a “Sacrificed King” according to the level of Malkhut (The Gate of Death/ The Gate of Justice/ The Gate of Pray/ The Gate of the Garden of Eden etc).
The meditators know well that the concept of Sacrifice reflects the perfect balance between Love (Fulfillment of the Great Work) and Justice (Conceptual Awareness at the level of the emanated World). Over here Justice, which is related to the Bravery too, it can slip into Cruelty.
The forces of the Lux Interna and of the Clear Mind (over here there is a conflict between Independence and Laziness) are focused too at the level of Sacrifice.
Generosity (versus Lust) and Sincerity (versus Dissoluteness) are also related to the concept of Sacrifice.
And of course this dualistic approach is necessary solely at the emanated World that we are free to grasp with our 6 senses -this is the reason why Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe🙂
The essence of the Sacrifice has nothing to do with the view that “sacrifice means that we lose something precious”. Sacrifice for the meditator is the transformation of the Power (that holds a specific form) to another form or to a shapeless condition. After the Sacrifice is done, we cannot notice the Quality that was “lost” at its primal specific field of Shape/ Form/ Rupa; however this Quality keeps up existing at a different level of existence.
Energy/ Power can be trapped into a specific shape or it can be free from any kind of shape. Through Sacrifice the meditator understands that we pick a specific Power-in-Shape and we release it to other levels of existence, where it still exists under a new shape or shapeless. Whatever we Sacrifice at a specific field of existence, it reappears at an other level of existence.
If you apply this very essential concept at any philosophical and/ or scientific field, and of course whilst you study and play the Immortal Game, and you will find out on your own how further will be pushed your inner understanding.
Therefore, the concept of the Sacrifice has nothing to do with the so called “word of god” as theology poses it. The idea of Sacrifice is a human invention, used in order to ease the Human during his way to learn himself -and, thus, everything.
Nothing Holy
😵
09 Apr 09
This miserable atheist black beetle offers an explanation regarding Dokuon, sure thing😵
On April 30, 2008, our friend LemonJello posted the following koan at the thread “A Koan: Nothing Exists”:
==
Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.
Desiring to show his attainment, he said:
-- “The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.”
Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.
-- “If nothing exists”, inquired Dokuon, “where did this anger come from?”
==
It is my knowledge that Dokuon acted out of Kriya Tantra, which is the Tantra of Action. This Tantra is the Vehicle of Purity.
In order to transfer to Yamaoka his Awareness directly from mind to mind, Dokuon shows that although this Vehicle drives you to a level where all the phenomena are primary Mind-Only, the practitioner has to remember that these phenomena have a nature that is different than his nature. The practitioner of Kriya Tantra sees by means of a non-conceptual awareness that everything keeps the quality of a dynamic equilibrium of existence/ non existence at the Mind-Only level at which the wavefunction is not collapsed.
Yamaoka “knew” this “aim” of Kriya Tantra, however he was just “grabbing” this “knowledge” strictly with the trivial logic of his mind and not by means of his inner understanding, so his mind was trapped at this pattern and remained still.
Dokuon whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe because the student forgot that at the level of the physical world the differences exist because the wavefunction is collapsed.
But all this that I wrote down has not the slightest value compared with the view that my brother vistesd offered at that thread -so I will just cut and paste it here in order to enjoy it you too:
“The truly religious person,
as opposed to the just-believer
in this or that
creed
concerning form or emptiness,
emptiness or form,
listens to the cowbird chuckle
-hears only the sound
reverberate in his bones-
tastes the sunlight on his skin,
dancing, stubs his toe -“Damn!”-
and when he makes up words,
such as these,
holds them of no more
or less account
than the cowbird’s chuckle,
the throb in a broken toe.
Form, emptiness,
emptiness, form-
wind slapping the bamboo chimes.
Yaaa!
Clapping hands and crack-toed,
still I dance-and tumble and dance-
That is my liturgy
of emptiness and form.
(And words such as these
are no more than
thoroughly dispensable rubrics:
the real liturgy
makes up itself
as it goes along...)
Anyone who wishes,
and is willing to hold hands
to help each other stay afoot,
fractured as we may be,
is welcome to the congregation.
No further “attainment” is required.
This is what vistesd said back then, and I bow to him;
Nothing Holy
😵
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI can deny it all I like. It is actually up to you to explain how they are connected otherwise it looks like you are simply making it up to avoid loosing the point.
wrong, it is all directly traceable in one way or another to the rebellion in the Garden of Eden and the consequence of moral independence from God, because sickness, death, disease are all the results of imperfection, war, etc are all the results of ignoring Gods principles, deny it you cannot.
It sounds like a really fancy grand scheme of God to pin the blame for everything on man. Luckily I am wise enough to realize that it is actually a grand scheme of certain men to try to explain away the inconsistencies in their theistic beliefs.
I can just picture it now, someone in Italy who has just had a building fall on him due to the recent earthquake looks up to the sky and says "damn you Adam - this is all your fault!"
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by black beetlebeetle you must consider this, for as you very correctly state, the notion of sacrifice is the very essence of our theology, we Christians hold, that it was the prime reason why Christ became manifest in the way he did. Now as you are also aware, and very correctly state, sacrifice is not a giving up of something precious, but a transformation, from one state to another, its value transcending during the course of the sacrifice, thus in the case of the Christ, its value transcends that what was given up, he thus now is able to present the 'value', of the sacrifice to our God. It is this, 'value', which makes it so very precious to Christians, for it has been proven once and for all time that a perfect being, under the most arduous and trying of circumstances, is able to keep his integrity to God. Why is this important? for it satisfies another of the universal issues, that persons render sacred service to God, only for what they can, 'get out of it'. Christ demonstrated that this, clearly was not the case, that indeed, love and self sacrifice, are more powerful motivating factors than self interest.
Rabbie my trusty feer,
The man-made (surprise surprise!) concept of Sacrifice, Jesus’ sacrifice included, is universal, and it is used in order to offer a notion about the essence of the Balance of the Physical and Mental world (QBLH, Mind-Only etc) alike. I think that the interpretation you offer is clearly a product of your theology; now I will off ...[text shortened]... er to ease the Human during his way to learn himself -and, thus, everything.
Nothing Holy
😵
i am amazed at the parallels you have drawn, for it seems to me, that you understand these concepts very well, even though they exist in a different form, even the concept of having a clear mind is paralleled, for it is well documented that Christ himself, refused to drink the concoction offered by the roman soldier less it dull his senses and permeate his mind. now the question arises my friend, are we to seriously consider, that you through your great learning and understanding of philosophy and theological systems, and me through the absence of learning and adherence to an ancient book, can speak of concepts beyond my scant powers of imagination? what must i conclude, did the biblical writers, some of whom were Kings, others manual workers, reapers of figs, shepherds, fishermen, tent makers etc etc, did they concoct or stumble upon these lofty ideas which you yourself present, i think not!
Everything Holy😵
09 Apr 09
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadsorry i do not need to explain anything to you, you are the one who has stated that Christ did not utter these saying, tell us, how you came to this conclusion, what is the basis for this claim, where is the evidence, is it historical, concerned with the integrity of scripture, what is it? or is it simply another unsubstantiated utterance, an empty thing, an exhalation of gas?
I can deny it all I like. It is actually up to you to explain how they are connected otherwise it looks like you are simply making it up to avoid loosing the point.
It sounds like a really fancy grand scheme of God to pin the blame for everything on man. Luckily I am wise enough to realize that it is actually a grand scheme of certain men to try to ex ...[text shortened]... to the recent earthquake looks up to the sky and says "*** you Adam - this is all your fault!"
were those people given warning? yes they were, hours before! did they ignore the warnings, yes they did! what has it got to do with God or Adam, that's correct, absolutely nothing, it is a statement reminiscent of the shortsighted and tabloid press, when someone builds there house of the san andreas fault line and then blames God when an earthquake occurs.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh Rabbie I just tried to show that there is no "value".
beetle you must consider this, for as you very correctly state, the notion of sacrifice is the very essence of our theology, we Christians hold, that it was the prime reason why Christ became manifest in the way he did. Now as you are also aware, and very correctly state, sacrifice is not a giving up of something precious, but a transformation, from ...[text shortened]... ble upon these lofty ideas which you yourself present, i think not!
Everything Holy😵
There is solely inner understanding by means of knowing yourself, and at a specific inner level of non-conceptual awareness the mediator sees that exists/ not exists a balanced situation that oversteps dualism -and this whole procedure is related to the nature of the mind.
In your homeland you may see this (over dualism) concept depicted through symbolism by means of differ triskelions; in Tibet you may see it as gankyil, in Japan you may notice differ crests based on this idea (ie RyuKyu, Ni Ten Itchi Ryu etc).
However, the Christian hermeneutics as you gave them, they remain just theology, and probably this lack of philosophical back up is the agent that tempts twhitehead, LemonJello and our other friends to oppose your comments.
Yes, I "understand" these concepts, but I am not "learned" and I am not at all better or worst than you. I study solely myself and I use the evaluation of the mind, I learn from everything and from everybody and I am ready to change my mind accordingly. There is not "ultimate truth" and "words of god" for me, there is only knowledge according to the evaluation of the mind.
The biblical writers were acting purely out of their own mind, but the QBLH approach is an extremely tricky minefield. In my opinion the hermeneutics offered later by the differ Christian churches are false, as one may conclude once he is aware of all the multiple contradictions of each "message/ interpretation" at every field of understanding; the inability of the Christians to produce an holistic crystal clear philosophy points towards this direction too.
Regarding your last question, the answer is obvious: all in all, your mind asks me and my mind replies to you.
Your mind evaluates the product of the mind of the biblic writers, and my mind evaluates the evaluation of your mind regarding your evaluation of the mind of the biblic writers.
Nothing Holy😵
09 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetleoh beetle my friend, it is not possible for the Christian to deny the 'value', of that ultimate sacrifice, to us, it is too precious, too consequential, too far reaching, for us it is a master stroke, the coup de grace, that blow to death that will end all suffering! a majestic checkmate, the culmination of a combination seen after move number one! rejoice with me beetle, for this very day, approximately 2000 years ago, the Christ celebrated his last meal with his friends, knowing that the combination was about to be realized, that 'all was accomplished'.
Oh Rabbie I just tried to show that there is no "value".
There is solely inner understanding by means of knowing yourself, and at a specific inner level of non-conceptual awareness the mediator sees that exists/ not exists a balanced situation that oversteps dualism -and this whole procedure is related to the nature of the mind.
In your homeland you mind regarding your evaluation of the mind of the biblic writers.
Nothing Holy😵
Lemonyello, twitehead etc etc oppose, for talk about the torture stake of Christ is 'foolishness ', to them, its no problem, for even in ancient Athens our friends had the same problems. Paul was termed a 'chatterer', literally a 'seed picker', who picked up bits of information here and there, so was the evaluation of the Ancients, but it matters not, for to us it is like a fine pearl, something of value and substance!