the propitiatory sacrifice of the christ

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh Yannis, my friend, finally i find the time and the occasion with which to congratulate you on the choice of name of the little beauty! Alexandra, is it not beautiful! and furthermore what joy it brings me to find that she is a natural 1.e4 player, ah, as the Christ states, 'out of the mouths of Babes!, not only that but she resists the nefarious ...[text shortened]... exandra Kostinuek, namesake of our little beauty, also a 1.e4 player. What happiness it brings!

I bow , ye lang leggedy beastie Nessie's lover 😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
I notice that I am yet to get anyone willing to give me an explanation of what sacrifice is all about.

Did you noticed my first post at page 5 of this thread? I think that this interpretation, which is in accordance at least with some QBLH and Mind-Only systems, is easily conceived.

Originally posted by black beetle
Did you noticed my first post at page 5 of this thread? I think that this interpretation, which is in accordance at least with some QBLH and Mind-Only systems, is easily conceived.

It was a bit to deep for me, but I have gone through it again. It doesn't really help me much as you don't seem to be explaining what Christians believe but rather claiming that the whole concept is man made.
Do you think most Christians have some sort of understanding of sacrifice or do you think I am correct in guessing that they simply don't like to think too hard about it. (as with the whole soul concept).

Originally posted by twhitehead
It was a bit to deep for me, but I have gone through it again. It doesn't really help me much as you don't seem to be explaining what Christians believe but rather claiming that the whole concept is man made.
Do you think most Christians have some sort of understanding of sacrifice or do you think I am correct in guessing that they simply don't like to think too hard about it. (as with the whole soul concept).

At that post I explained that the Bible is a QBLH text and that the Christian interpretation is false; the main QBLH idea is, amongst else*, that the concept of the Sacrifice is equivalent to the nature of the perfect Balance of the forces of the universe.
However the Christians believe that the Sacrifice of Jesus was made in order to help the Human overcome her/ his sinful nature. Therefore, in order to ask your question, I think that this thesis is claimed because, if you take away the Sacrifice and the so called original sin, the Christian religion would fall in bits.
But this is solely a blind belief -for example, you see that Robbie or some other Christian friend of ours cannot offer a philosophically justified explanation of this Christian doctrine; so it seems to me that you are correct when you guess that they don't like to think too hard about it. Actually, they don't.

*The Sacrifice is a QBLH quality oriented at the sphere of Tipharet, and its philosophical back up is very tricky because the differ interpretations have to do with the Macrocosmic and the Microcosmic level of conceptual and non-conceptual awareness at five different states of existence. But anyway, if there is a specific issue that you would like me to address or to clarify further in relation with that post of mine, I will try my best to respond.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"You can't seem to think of anyone who has lived as Jesus commanded they should. Not one single person who has been able to commit to Jesus and actually never needed to confess their sin again?...Can you name one person , living or dead , who has attained complete purity of heart so that they have no need of Jesus's sacrifice and no need to confess any ...[text shortened]... ught out it was. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope for you.

The fact remains that you are still unable to provide one single example of any human being who has lived or is living the way Jesus (in your interpretation) commanded via his teachings.

Are you not able to find at least one person who might have a chance of fitting the bill?

If you can't then doesn't that suggest that your theory has some serious problems? You can waffle all you like about whether we can see into a person's heart or not , but you know as well as I do that a man's heart will reflect in his life (By their fruits will you know them) so we should still be able to locate them.

Given this you still cannot find one single example of anyone who has attained the state of heart you think we should all have. You have around 10-12 billion people to chose from and you cannot find one example? Curious. Not one that even gets close?

I propose that your theory is just that - a theory - that has no relation to reality.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That sounds like an accurate description of almost any theist on this forum (including you). I don't see why you have such a problem with it.

At least I will have a go at answering a question. We can all be evasive at times but ToO has it down to a fine art.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The fact remains that you are still unable to provide one single example of any human being who has lived or is living the way Jesus (in your interpretation) commanded via his teachings.

Are you not able to find at least one person who might have a chance of fitting the bill?

If you can't then doesn't that suggest that your theory has some seri e?

I propose that your theory is just that - a theory - that has no relation to reality.

I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. Another concept that seems to be beyond you is how it is not possible for a human being to determine with absolute certainty that another human being's heart is absolutely pure. It's truly remarkable how you seem to believe that if you keep repeating something that isn't true, it becomes fact. I seem to remember that one of the basic premises of the Nazi party was that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. Evidently this premise even works on individuals who lie to themselves. One can only hope that in time you overcome your delusions. It truly saddens me that you are so afflicted.



"I propose that your theory is just that - a theory - that has no relation to reality."

A "theory" fully supported by the teachings of Jesus:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

As also evidenced by your myriad of "time" threads, you also seem to believe that if you propose something often enough, it also becomes fact.

Originally posted by knightmeister
At least I will have a go at answering a question. We can all be evasive at times but ToO has it down to a fine art.

Enlightenment always comes after the road of thinking is blocked😵

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. Another concept that seems to be beyond you is how it is not possible for a human being to determine with absolute certainty that another human being's ...[text shortened]... seem to believe that if you propose something often enough, it also becomes fact.

I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. ---------------ToO---------------------

If you did I must have completely missed it . What were/are they called? Where did they live? I want to hear more about these perfect people who have no need to confess any sin to Christ.

What you seem to forget in all this is that Jesus taught us that we should ask for forgiveness for our sins on a daily basis in the Lord's prayer - why would he ask us to do this if we were supposed to be utterly perfect? A perfect person does not need to ask for forgiveness.


All I am asking for is that you illustrate your theory with some substantial evidence. Some of the words of Jesus support your theory , some contradict it - but you have yet to give one single example of any person (from within the church or not) who has actually been able to live according to your theory.

I'm surprised that you are not able to see the implications of this flaw in your theory , or may it's because you can see the implications that you just end up playing for time.

(Having said this you can have all the time you need , try putting "perfect person who lived exactly as Jesus commanded" into Google and see if any names come up (LOL))

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"You can't seem to think of anyone who has lived as Jesus commanded they should. Not one single person who has been able to commit to Jesus and actually never needed to confess their sin again?...Can you name one person , living or dead , who has attained complete purity of heart so that they have no need of Jesus's sacrifice and no need to confess any ught out it was. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope for you.

"It's likely that a large percentage of those who have made deathbed commitments fit this criteria." Besides the entire premise of your "challenge" is flawed as I also explained earlier. Whether or not you believe it possible does not change what Jesus taught. ------------------------ToO-----------------------------

Is this your response? Do you not see the flaw in it? If a man makes a deathbed conversion then there is no opportunity for him to sin later so it's impossible to know if his heart had become totally pure and he had become perfected.

Logically a deathbed conversion is evidence of nothing other than a conversion. What would constitute good evidence for your theory would be a person who has converted to christ and then gone on to live a perfect sinless life with no need for confession or forgiveness. If you can provide evidence for such a man or woman then you are in business. Someone who converts and then dies is not evidence either way and you know it.

Your deathbed argument is soooo weak , if I had come up with something like this I just know you would have me for breakfast on it - and you would be right to. It's bizarre that you actually came out with this at all!

So I ask again whether you can think of any person who has converted and then lived sinlessly - (let's say for at least one year) - can you think of anyone or is your theory devoid of examples?

Has anyone ever claimed perfection for themselves in christ and stated that they have no need for confession?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I not only found "one person", I cited an example of an entire group of people that fit the criteria. The fact that you keep denying it is yet another example of how certain concepts seem to be beyond you. ---------------ToO---------------------

If you did I must have completely missed it . What were/are they called? Where did they live? I want to ...[text shortened]... son who lived exactly as Jesus commanded" into Google and see if any names come up (LOL))

None of the teachings of Jesus contradict the following:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Jesus was consistent in His message. It's unfortunate that you choose not to believe in His teachings.

"If you did I must have completely missed it . What were/are they called? Where did they live?"

Why do you continue to play these games? You only embarrass yourself by continually making false claims.
For at least the third time:
"It's likely that a large percentage of those who have made deathbed commitments fit this criteria."

Well, if nothing else, you've demonstrated beyond all doubt that there's still little point in trying to discuss anything with you. "You have eyes but cannot see."

Originally posted by twhitehead
There is of course 4) Jesus never said those things in the first place.

I challenge you to tell me what sin is committed by people who repent on their death beads then die minutes later.

And does that prove that they were sinless and perfected ? Or does it just mean that we can't ever know. Away with this pedantic nonsense!!! You know full well the point I am making and you also know that deathbed conversions are irrelevant because they prove nothing.

Both you and ToO are being playful , childish and looking for silly loopholes. Try some self reflection and you will see that what you are doing here is avoiding the issue. ThinkofOne is not able to provide one single example that backs up his theory.

Look me up when you want a grown up discussion.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
None of the teachings of Jesus contradict the following:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Jesus was consistent in His message. It's unfortunate that you choose not to believe in His teaching ...[text shortened]... ttle point in trying to discuss anything with you. "You have eyes but cannot see."

I missed it the first time because it was such an appalling argument I don't think it even registered. Anyway , I have now addressed this.

Surely you can't think that deathbed conversions actually support your theory?

Please tell me you are not THAT deluded.

The obvious point is that we cannot know what would have happened if those people had gone on to live. Would they have lived perfect sinless lives or not? We cannot tell. Therefore , the fact that death denied them the opportunity either way is not evidence to support your theory.

(I can't believe I'm actually having to spell this out for you - is this a joke? )

Originally posted by knightmeister
I missed it the first time because it was such an appalling argument I don't think it even registered. Anyway , I have now addressed this.

Surely you can't think that deathbed conversions actually support your theory?

Please tell me you are not THAT deluded.

The obvious point is that we cannot know what would have happened if those people h ...[text shortened]... eory.

(I can't believe I'm actually having to spell this out for you - is this a joke? )

Actually you missed it the first TWO times. Like usual you are so intent on making disparaging remarks that you are too blind to SEE what's right in front of your face. How many posts did you making telling me and others that I didn't answer your question? Even after having had it pointed out to you again? This is the way attempts to have a discussion usually seem to go. Yet you call others "childish". You're really something else.

If you go back and reread my posts as well as your own, perhaps it'll help open your eyes, so that you can "grow up" a little.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
None of the teachings of Jesus contradict the following:
"You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Jesus was consistent in His message. It's unfortunate that you choose not to believe in His teaching ttle point in trying to discuss anything with you. "You have eyes but cannot see."

ThinkofOne, you are presuming that you are accurately teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would like to see what your New Testament consists of.

Please place either a YES or a NO besides the following books; YES indicates that you believe that that book is the word of God and NO means you do not believe it is the word of God. If you are unsure or not decided you can put a question mark - ? :


Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation