The rock question

Originally posted by telerion
Then logic is independent of God.

Logic can not be dependent by definition of logic. If logic could be Dependant on anything (God included), then logic could be not-logic, which would be illogical. Logic is not a being or thing created the way that a triangle in not a being or thing created.

And one is not dependent on the other. If logic depended on God, then God could have been without logic, which is impossible. God can not depend on logic for the same reasoning. Both are eternal. And since the science of logic is the science of thinking, God's mind is logical.

Which brings me to the Book of John. In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. I think Christ is the mind, the thinking, the logic of God. And Christ is God. So God's thinking is logic.

Originally posted by Coletti
Logic can not be dependent by definition of logic. If logic could be Dependant on anything (God included), then logic could be not-logic, which would be illogical. Logic is not a being or thing created the way that a triangle in not a being or thing created.

And one is not dependent on the other. If logic depended on God, then God could have been with ...[text shortened]... t is the mind, the thinking, the logic of God. And Christ is God. So God's thinking is logic.

What other things besides God and Logic do you think are eternal, aside from torment for nonbelievers and paradise for believers?

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
The question is not "Is God God," but instead "is God omnipotent."
If some told me that a circle has 100 angles and he knows this because he believes it to be in the definition of a circle, I would still question him even if he re ...[text shortened]... possibility that he was misinformed all his life.

... --- ...

No, the question given is "if God is omnipotent..." not "is God omnipotent". In other words, can an omnipotent being do the following...

Maybe it's the God part that has you confused. Try using Muffy. Can an omnipotent Muffy do the following....

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What other things besides God and Logic do you think are eternal, aside from torment for nonbelievers and paradise for believers?

I think God and logic about covers it. Time and matter were created. I don't know if you can define space without matter and time so space was created also. I'm not certain about the torment of non-believers, since that has a beginning, it can not be eternal.

Originally posted by Coletti
I think God and logic about covers it.

What about the Devil?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What about the Devil?

I'll look that up. Not sure off hand.

Originally posted by Palynka
Didn't he lie to Abraham?

How?

Originally posted by Coletti
No, the question given is "if God is omnipotent..." not "is God omnipotent". In other words, can an omnipotent being do the following...

Maybe it's the God part that has you confused. Try using Muffy. Can an omnipotent Muffy do the following....

The question does nothing but suggest that the idea of omnipotence can contradict itself. You could actually replace anything for God in the question. For instance: "If Coletti is an omnipotent being with the power of creation, could he create a rock that he could not lift?" This easy substitution clearly shows that the question is not about God, but about the element that cannot be replaced, that is omnipotence. If the concept of omnipotence is faulty, then of course the question "If God omnipotent" can be answered with a negative.

... --- ...

Originally posted by Coletti
Think of it this way: can a circle be a circle and not a circle at the same time. Why or why not?

It is possible to solve a logical problem without using logic. I'd suggest that many great scientific discoveries have not been found by logical reasoning but logic was subsequently used only to frame that discovery in a way we can clearly understand, write down and communicate. Even in chess, it is intuition that determines your first idea, you then use logic to see if it makes sense. Maybe we are not very good at intuition but are good at logic. That doesn't mean one is better than the other, it means we identify more easily with the latter. Instinct too may be an alternative to logic. We don't think we have much of that and maybe we don't. It seems to work well for some creatures though.

Point is, saying logic is the one true way because anything else is illogical is very similar to saying God created the bible just because it says so in the bible.

I am bloody sick of this rock, which is why I created this thread:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=22199

I actually like bbarr's answer better than my own. Now go away. For your homework, make a triangle with four sides.

Originally posted by orfeo
I am bloody sick of this rock, which is why I created this thread:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=22199

I actually like bbarr's answer better than my own. Now go away. For your homework, make a triangle with four sides.

And bbarr has answered it two or three times that I can recall.

I should memorize his answer because I always fail to put it so succinctly and clearly. 🙂

( But it's fun to go back and see how close I can to his answer. )

Originally posted by Wheely
It is possible to solve a logical problem without using logic. I'd suggest that many great scientific discoveries have not been found by logical reasoning but logic was subsequently used only to frame that discovery in a way we can clearly understand, write down and communicate. Even in chess, it is intuition that determines your first idea, you then use l ...[text shortened]... illogical is very similar to saying God created the bible just because it says so in the bible.

I use the term logic in a very fundamental sense, i.e. the laws of logic like non-contradiction and identify.

Whenever you simply think or talk, you are using the laws of logic even if you are not conscience of it. And when you argue, you usually apply the "rules" of logic even if you are unaware of it. So on this fundamental basis, you can not write a coherent sentence without using logic. The only question is, do you do so correctly, or poorly.

Originally posted by orfeo
I am bloody sick of this rock, which is why I created this thread:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=22199

I actually like bbarr's answer better than my own. Now go away. For your homework, make a triangle with four sides.

i agree that bbarr gives a nice interpretation of the rock question and shows in logical terms that the question is complete rubbish to begin with.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

This question has popped up quite a few times. The answer:

No. God cannot do the logically impossible, any more than He can act out of character with Himself. God cannot, for instance, create a square circle, stop being good, or cease being God. God can do everything t ...[text shortened]... iracles. For further study, see Jeremiah 32:17, Matthew 19:26, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13.[/b]

Jesus was part of God but he was also human. He ceased being omnipoptent but then again he couldn't lift big rocks.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Jesus was part of God but he was also human. He ceased being omnipoptent but then again he couldn't lift big rocks.

Jesus was fully God and fully man. He was still omnipotent even as a man.