1. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 09:57
    If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

    This question has popped up quite a few times. The answer:

    No. God cannot do the logically impossible, any more than He can act out of character with Himself. God cannot, for instance, create a square circle, stop being good, or cease being God. God can do everything that is possible to do, which includes those acts for which there may be no simple, immediate, apparent, human explanation, i.e. miracles. For further study, see Jeremiah 32:17, Matthew 19:26, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13.
  2. Standard memberWheely
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    18 May '05 10:12
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

    This question has popped up quite a few times. The answer:

    No. God cannot do the logically impossible, any more than He can act out of character with Himself. God cannot, for instance, create a square circle, stop being good, or cease being God. God can do everything t ...[text shortened]... iracles. For further study, see Jeremiah 32:17, Matthew 19:26, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13.[/b]
    That makes no sense to me. If your God is omnipotent then I see no reason why he can not create something so big he can not lift it even though there is nothing that can be created that he can't lift. I presume that God makes the rules of logic.

    I KNOW that Muffy can!
  3. Standard memberPalynka
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    18 May '05 10:221 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

    This question has popped up quite a few times. The answer:

    No. God cannot do the logically impossible, any more than He can act out of character with ...[text shortened]... e Jeremiah 32:17, Matthew 19:26, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13.[/b]
    Although I'm an atheist, I also think this argument is flawed.

    An omnipotent being should have the power to cease being omnipotent.

    Creating a rock so big that god can't lift it, would imply for him to cease is omnipotence willingly.


    You can't say: If gods chooses to cease being omnipotent, he's not omnipotent anymore and therefore he's not god. Doesn't make sense to me...
  4. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 10:28
    Originally posted by Wheely
    That makes no sense to me. If your God is omnipotent then I see no reason why he can not create something so big he can not lift it even though there is nothing that can be created that he can't lift. I presume that God makes the rules of logic.

    I KNOW that Muffy can!
    That makes no sense to me. If your God is omnipotent then I see no reason why he can not create something so big he can not lift it even though there is nothing that can be created that he can't lift. I presume that God makes the rules of logic.

    The same applies to matter. Matter, by human definition cannot be created or destroyed. But God created matter.

  5. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 10:31
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Although I'm an atheist, I also think this argument is flawed.

    An omnipotent being should have the power to cease being omnipotent.

    Creating a rock so big that god can't lift it, would imply for him to cease is omnipotence willingly.


    You can't say: If gods chooses to cease being omnipotent, he's not omnipotent anymore and therefore he's not god. Doesn't make sense to me...
    Basically you are putting your own limitations on God. God is omnipotent and thus has no limitations.
  6. Standard memberPalynka
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    18 May '05 10:35
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Basically you are putting your own limitations on God. God is omnipotent and thus has no limitations.
    No, you are the one limiting him by saying he can't forfeit his omnipotence.
  7. Standard memberWheely
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    18 May '05 11:24
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]That makes no sense to me. If your God is omnipotent then I see no reason why he can not create something so big he can not lift it even though there is nothing that can be created that he can't lift. I presume that God makes the rules of logic.

    The same applies to matter. Matter, by human definition cannot be created or destroyed. But God created matter.

    [/b]
    I'm not sure what your point is here. I thought you were answering the question of whether God could create a rock so heavy, he couldn't lift it. At first site that seems to defy logic but if Got is omnipotent and created everything then presumably he created the rules of logic. Presumably he could change those if he wished and make the whole question not defy logic. He could make it perfectly natural for 2 and 2 to equal 5. He could make it perfectly sensible for a vegetarian to be a meat eater and he could even make two rights equal a wrong.

    I think you set your own limits on your God. Muffy would not approve!
  8. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    18 May '05 11:39
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]That makes no sense to me. If your God is omnipotent then I see no reason why he can not create something so big he can not lift it even though there is nothing that can be created that he can't lift. I presume that God makes the rules of logic.

    The same applies to matter. Matter, by human definition cannot be created or destroyed. But God created matter.

    [/b]
    But he didn't create the rules of logic? I think what everyone is saying here is that is God does not control the rules of logic, then He is also a slave to the universe, same as us pathetic humans.

    As for human definition, the only definitions we have for God are of human conception. If human definitions for matter can be flawed, and I certainly agree with you that they can be, then human definitions for God can also be flawed. Where does that lead us? Only into the murky world of ignorance, a state of being that so many so-called thinking mortals are afraid of. We know nothing.

    ... --- ...
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    18 May '05 11:54
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    I think what everyone is saying here is that is God does not control the rules of logic, then He is also a slave to the universe, same as us pathetic humans.
    I'm not saying that.

    I'm saying an omnipotent being has the power to be a slave to them if he so wills it.
  10. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 11:59
    Originally posted by Wheely
    I'm not sure what your point is here. I thought you were answering the question of whether God could create a rock so heavy, he couldn't lift it. At first site that seems to defy logic but if Got is omnipotent and created everything then presumably he created the rules of logic. Presumably he could change those if he wished and make the whole question no ...[text shortened]... rights equal a wrong.

    I think you set your own limits on your God. Muffy would not approve!
    I am saying that the question is not logical. The question puts limitations on a limitless God. Besides, God created gravity, and thus it is illogical to say that the creator of gravity would not be able to lift something which would be too heavy for him to lift if in fact there were something that were too heavy for him to lift, which he would have had to create in the first place because there is nothing that is too heavy for Him to lift which means which just shows how illogical the question is.
  11. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    18 May '05 12:01
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm not saying that.

    I'm saying an omnipotent being has the power to be a slave to them if he so wills it.
    Is that how you view God?
  12. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 12:03
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I'm not saying that.

    I'm saying an omnipotent being has the power to be a slave to them if he so wills it.
    You are agian pointing out the illogicality of the question. The point is He would no longer be omnipotent if he were to be their slave, therefore eventhough He has the ability to do so, He still would not do so because then He would no longer be omnipotent.
  13. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    18 May '05 12:11
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    You are agian pointing out the illogicality of the question. The point is He would no longer be omnipotent if he were to be their slave, therefore eventhough He has the ability to do so, He still would not do so because then He would no longer be omnipotent.
    First: you are deciding the Will Of God, a big no-no that so many Christians think they have the right to do. Second: if God cannot control logic, then perhaps God is not omnipotent. We only have our own word that He is.

    ... --- ...
  14. Standard memberdj2becker
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    18 May '05 12:18
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    First: you are deciding the Will Of God, a big no-no that so many Christians think they have the right to do. Second: if God cannot control logic, then perhaps God is not omnipotent. We only have our own word that He is.

    ... --- ...
    If God cannot control logic, then perhaps God is not omnipotent. We only have our own word that He is.

    We have his word:

    Matthew 19:26
    "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
  15. Standard memberWheely
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    18 May '05 12:28
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am saying that the question is not logical. The question puts limitations on a limitless God. Besides, God created gravity, and thus it is illogical to say that the creator of gravity would not be able to lift something which would be too heavy for him to lift if in fact there were something that were too heavy for him to lift, which he would have had to ...[text shortened]... that is too heavy for Him to lift which means which just shows how illogical the question is.
    So, if you are saying the same thing as I am (without the Muffy references of course) then why did you say "No" in answer to the question in the first place. I would have thought the answer would be "yes", regardless of how illogical the question seems to you and me.
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