Originally posted by PatNovak


Also, putting quotes around this: "A bigger version of me cannot exist. Any God would have to be a sinful being like me. That could not be so no God exists.", like you are quoting your opponent, when your opponent said no such thing, is particularly egregious behavior.[/b]

Facts and logic are the only things that matter in a debate about any idea. Attacking the motivation of your opponent is ad hominem attack. The motivation of your opponents is irrelevant, and is also unknowable unless you are a mind reader.

Would you call me expressing my opinion (which I admitted might be incorrect) about the thinking of someone an ad hominem attack ? I would not.

1.) The argument concerned me not knowing how the thinking process of an atheist goes.

I have a right to explain some of my ideas about that thinking process. No ad hom in that.

2.) You usually do not "attack" a person by adding the caveat that you might be wrong.

3.) I was honestly speaking TO someone other than the person on the other end of the debate. I can't help it if he read it.

Googlefish said I was not worth talking to. If I was able to technically control that I would make it so that he could not read me any longer and I could neither read him. Technically I do not have that ability to place us each on ignore.

Only private messages can be switched off.

So I think your evaluation of an ad hom attack from me on googlefish is way off. As a matter of fact I also, in the process, spelled out where I disagreed with Freaky a fellow Christian.

"How do these guys think?" was the aspect of the thread being discussed. And I have the right to address that. You sure enough express how the theists think, so relax.

Originally posted by Penguin
Nope, sorry, you both still seem to be under the impression that we actually do believe that your specific god exists and that we are deliberately turning away from him. This is simply not the case.

We have simply seen no more evidence that he exists than any of the other millions of conceivable deities, which is why we continually ask 'which god?'. It is you who focus on the Christian god, not us.

--- Penguin

Then you must have your eyes closed or you are blind.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Now the hell matter. If there is God and God is all knowing, then it follows I think: ...

This is what you do not seem to be able to understand...

As an atheist, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY GODS EXIST.

Now we are not having a hypothetical argument about the nature of reality, we are talking
about real world issues.

So when ...[text shortened]... gods existence to
any atheist unless you can first prove your gods existence to that atheist.

Googlefudge,

The comment about you having forever to think about it was flippant. I apologize for that flippant remark.

Originally posted by sonship
Googlefudge,

The comment about you having forever to think about it was flippant. I apologize for that flippant remark.

Thankyou. But you still believe I'm going to hell... Which is part of the problem.

Originally posted by googlefudge
First, and you do this in every one so I'll deal with it globally...

I don't 'reject' your god [or any gods] because I don't have a belief that it exists.
This is a topic done to death in other threads, but it's the wrong word/term to use and
so I will just restate that here. I have no great expectation of you agreeing but hey.

Also... You make ...[text shortened]... te]

Yeah... No, not even close.

Not why I am here...

Score of... D ... Must try Harder.

I listened to the introduction.
Somehow missed the song.
Why are you here, exactly?

Googlefudge,

Thankyou. But you still believe I'm going to hell... Which is part of the problem.

I dare not believe that anyone cannot receive Jesus as I was able to.

And if you are so very sure that God does not exist then there should be no further problem. Right?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Thankyou. But you still believe I'm going to hell... Which is part of the problem.

Don't you want to go to hell?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Don't you want to go to hell?

Hell doesn't exist. Neither does heaven.

The problem is not what is going to happen to me.

The problem is what people like you believe is going to happen to me.


Given that their is no god, and that consequently there is no god giving you
divine inspiration or guiding your thoughts or actions...

The fact that you and those like you, believe that I am going to spend an
eternity in an afterlife being tortured and that I will have deserved it, is not
because your god has told you so, because your god doesn't exist.

It's because YOU think I deserve to hell. YOU do.

Your god doesn't exist.


It's your beliefs that are the problem.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Hell doesn't exist. Neither does heaven.

The problem is not what is going to happen to me.

The problem is what people like you believe is going to happen to me.


Given that their is no god, and that consequently there is no god giving you
divine inspiration or guiding your thoughts or actions...

The fact that you and those like you, believ ...[text shortened]... deserve to hell. YOU do.

Your god doesn't exist.


It's your beliefs that are the problem.

Again: why are you here?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Again: why are you here?

Because I want to be.

You got a problem with that, tough cookies.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Because I want to be.

You got a problem with that, tough cookies.

That part is obvious, you're desire.

That isn't the question, though, is it?

The question is why.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Hell doesn't exist. Neither does heaven.




Given that their is no god, and that consequently there is no god giving you
divine inspiration or guiding your thoughts or actions...

The fact that you and those like you, believe that I am going to spend an
eternity in an afterlife being tortured and that I will have deserved it, is not
because ...[text shortened]... deserve to hell. YOU do.

Your god doesn't exist.


It's your beliefs that are the problem.

The problem is not what is going to happen to me.

The problem is what people like you believe is going to happen to me.

Googlefudge, Surely you must have learned by now that you cannot control what people think about you.

People will think about me whatever it is they would like to think. People will think about you whatever they wish to. We cannot control what people will think about us.

I can't control what you believe about me. Right ?

So if you are so very sure that there is neither any love of God or salvation of God or God period ... there should be no more problem.

That is unless you are still trying to convince yourself.

Originally posted by sonship

The problem is not what is going to happen to me.

The problem is what people like you believe is going to happen to me.

Googlefudge, Surely you must have learned by now that you [b]cannot control what people think about you.

People will think about me whatever it is they would like to think. People will think about you w ...[text shortened]... there should be no more problem.

That is unless you are still trying to convince yourself.[/b]

Can we dispense with all the 'unless you are still trying to make up your mind'
nonsense?

Can we all just take it as read that unless and until someone provides convincing
evidence for god I am convinced that my position is the correct one beyond all
reasonable doubt?


Of course I can't make people think stuff, however it's perfectly possible to influence what
people think and believe.

Peoples opinions of me will be influenced by what I say and do [among other things] and
insomuch as I can choose what I say and do I can change how people think about me
by talking and acting in different ways.

And of course the reverse is also true.


The problem I have is that people are making judgements about me [and many many others]
based on the words of long dead people who didn't know what they were talking about.

Making decisions based on the existence of things that do not in actual fact exist.

And those judgements and decisions are wrong, because they are based on faulty premises.

And [some of] those judgements and decisions effect me, and others in a negative way.


Just for one example, the people in congress saying that global warming isn't real and/or not
a problem because the world is about to end anyway and thus doesn't matter.

The world is not about to be ended by god, but global warming is real, will cause huge problems
during my lifetime, and needs to be dealt with now. And they are stopping or delaying action.

So yes there is a problem, and while I don't have a magic 'make everyone rational' button I could
push and make people think strait... It's still possible to influence others.


So, you are wrong on every count.

Can we dispense with all the 'unless you are still trying to make up your mind'nonsense?

I am sure you would prefer that I did. But I wonder why you want to play Orwellian "Thought Police" over what some people may believe about you.

Can we all just take it as read that unless and until someone provides convincing evidence for god I am convinced that my position is the correct one beyond all reasonable doubt?

I have no problem with that. It appears that you have a problem with it.
So you're not forced by any evidence to believe in God.

What is the need for you to continue your approach "But you have not yet forced me to believe in God."

Maybe you won't be at peace until everyone is as skeptical as yourself ?
Everyone is not going to be as skeptical as yourself. Get use to it.

Of course I can't make people think stuff, however it's perfectly possible to influence what people think and believe.

Some people who are on the fence will believe in God as a result of your show of desperation. That happens.

You see some people may have a little of your thoughts. But when they hear you rant on as you do, they may decide "Well, I don't take it that far as this guy."

You see, you can actually cause some undecided people to consider the reality of God more seriously.

Peoples opinions of me will be influenced by what I say and do [among other things] and insomuch as I can choose what I say and do I can change how people think about me by talking and acting in different ways.

That's right sometimes. And the outcome may not be what you thought it should be.

And of course the reverse is also true.

The problem I have is that people are making judgements about me [and many many others] based on the words of long dead people who didn't know what they were talking about.

This displays an arrogance as if the only skeptical minds in the human history have just arrived in the last few decades. In the first century AD there were believers in God and there were unbelievers and skeptics just like today.

When Joseph found out that his wife Mary was pregnant, he was ready to quietly put her away. He knew how babies were made. He did say "No problem! Engaged women can have babies miraculously before coming together all the time."

Jesus reminded the people how well they were able to predict the weather of tomorrow by examining today's sky.

" ... He [Jesus] answered and said to them, When evening falls, you say, There will be fair weather, for the sky is red;

And in the morning, It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and gloomy. the face of the sky you know how to discern, but you cannot discern the sings of the times." (Matt. 16:2,3)

The point here is that ancient people were not all naive as you assume. Some ancient skills of wisdom we have even lost. Remedies to ailments and other bits of wisdom were in some cases more familiar to them than they are to us in our technological age.

You are not the only clear minded generation to be on the earth. And you should not over seek comfort in that arrogance.

Making decisions based on the existence of things that do not in actual fact exist.

Aristotle was no fundamentalist Christian. I believe that he reasoned that there must be an Unmoved Mover as a basis for the existence of everything.

And latter minds have argued, I think correctly, that if anything exists then something must have always existed necessarily. This is all before you come to the Bible which tells us plainly - "In the beginning God created ..."

And those judgements and decisions are wrong, because they are based on faulty premises.

Basically, you are telling me Jesus should not be taken seriously in what He taught and demonstrated. I'll pass.

Out of the same mouth that spoke the most gracious and loving words of pardon, forgiveness, forebearance, and mercy also came the most sobering words of final justice and accountability.

The same Person spoke both sides of the matter. And your suggestion that Jesus not be taken seriously is replaced by nothing more logical or convincing to me.

And [some of] those judgements and decisions effect me, and others in a negative way.

If you know there is no God, no need for reconciliation to God, no loving salvation and no possibility that your life was recorded, then there is neither negative or positive consequences.

IF you know that, you seem not satisfied that you know that.

"Argue with me one more time, and one more time, and one more time ..." ad infinitum doesn't seem to add to your confidence.

Maybe you are an evangelist for atheism. You have that right.
Are you an evangelist for Atheism ?

Just for one example, the people in congress saying that global warming isn't real and/or not a problem because the world is about to end anyway and thus doesn't matter.

I don't know of anyone who made such an argument.

That seems a generalization. Some argue it is a genuine concern and some say not so, or less so as espoused. I think you have a variety of views on that issue.

Besides, you can vote to effect policy. Don't intend to play the Orwellian "Thought Police" to eradicate the idea from people's minds. Then you're clamoring for the most intrusive totalitarian regime.

The world is not about to be ended by god, but global warming is real, will cause huge problems during my lifetime, and needs to be dealt with now. And they are stopping or delaying action.

Well, I believe that Christ's coming and establishing His kingdom on the planet will occur sometime. What you call the "end of the world" some of us regard as a glorious new beginning.

Whether you regard that as "the end" or "a new beginning" depends on where you stand with God.

Because I read the Bible rather than just assume ignorant stuff, I realize that God believers in the Bible often occupied positions of governmental influence. Daniel is a good example of rising to a top position in the Chaldean Empire of Babylon. Joseph was elevated to serve number 2 to Pharoah in Egypt. Moses of course was in line for high position in Egypt and was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians.

I don't share any silly assumption that all believers in God have to be run away from public offices.

So yes there is a problem, and while I don't have a magic 'make everyone rational' button I could push and make people think strait... It's still possible to influence others.

If you think you have some corner market on rational thinking, you don't.
Maybe that is what you are really concerned to convince yourself of.
Good luck.

You can start by explaining how a rational mind contemplating its own existence gradually arose from non-thinking dirt evolutionary style.

Maybe you could tell us how much a piece of logic weighs in grams.

Originally posted by sonship

Can we dispense with all the 'unless you are still trying to make up your mind'nonsense?

I am sure you would prefer that I did. But I wonder why you want to play Orwellian [b]"Thought Police" over what some people may believe about you.

[quote]
Can we all just take it as read that unless and until someone provides convincing ...[text shortened]... evolutionary style.

Maybe you could tell us how much a piece of logic weighs in grams.[/b]

First. try to reply to my [others] posts as a whole.

I don't space my posts out because I expect or want a response to every sentence,
frequently the next sentence answers or invalidates the 'point' you were making about
the previous one.

Second. Too long didn't read.

Got 1/3 of the way in, realised you had completely missed the point and stopped.

You seem to go to allot of trouble to write your posts in the you are evidently hunting
down bible verses and you do lots of formatting and such and I really do appreciate
how much effort that takes... But given you had gone off the rails and totally missed my
point after the first couple of paragraphs, everything else you built upon that was never
going to be valid.

And glancing through it I can see that you still have not grasped what it means that I
don't believe in your god. You keep bringing up stories from the bible and 'what Jesus said'
and I don't care because I don't think any of that happened, it's not real.
Unless your point would be just as valid if it were said by Captain Kirk than it would be if said
by JC then it's not going to mean anything to me unless you can first prove your god exists.