The voice of God?

Originally posted by KingOnPoint
Wolfgang,
FMF wanted an answer and tried to hold me to giving him an answer.

Contradicting yourself is hardly an answer.
Why would you do that?
How does anyone know which is your real answer?
Do you?

How often do you have these bouts of confusion?
Are you on medication?

Take care of yourself.

SG's original post did not mock God, it mocked a certain 'fraternity' at this forum.

To the members of that 'fraternity' I say: beware the sin of presumption. No matter what God might have said in the Bible, no matter how many miles of Scripture you copy-paste into this forum, YOU do not know how God will judge anyone.

Originally posted by moonbus
SG's original post did not mock God, it mocked a certain 'fraternity' at this forum.

To the members of that 'fraternity' I say: beware the sin of presumption. No matter what God might have said in the Bible, no matter how many miles of Scripture you copy-paste into this forum, YOU do not know how God will judge anyone.

"YOU do not know how God will judge anyone." -moonbus

Correct: no one knows "how" though the Word of God delineates for what.

Originally posted by moonbus
Job didn't. Neither did his sons.

I will have to read Job again.

To me the relationship of God with Job is like the relationship of Jonah and God. It is implied. In both cases the story starts more in the middle of the relationship versus the beginning as in Moses.

Both Job and Jonah have already had a deep relationship with God before the story opens.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I heard something last night. A whisper of something. "Change your wicked ways", it said. I can't help but wonder. Was it the voice of God? What do you guys think?

I'm just not sure what to do right now. I try for 2 decades to have a conversation with him. Nothing. Then I do a decade as an atheist, becoming more and more outspokenly anti-god, as you a ...[text shortened]...
I'm afraid all my anti-god posts this morning were just a facade. I'm so confused right now. 🙁

You did NOT hear the audible voice of God.

You should be comforted to know that!

Originally posted by josephw
You did NOT hear the audible voice of God.

You should be comforted to know that!

You should be comforted that you didn't visit the forum on Apr. 1st. You would have fallen for it, too. 🙂

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You should be comforted that you didn't visit the forum on Apr. 1st. You would have fallen for it, too. 🙂

lol No doubt!

Originally posted by Pudgenik: "When you experience the voice of God, you will feel a deep peace in your heart." To which I replied that Job did not and neither did his sons.

Pudgenik continued: "I will have to read Job again. To me the relationship of God with Job is like the relationship of Jonah and God. It is implied. In both cases the story starts more in the middle of the relationship versus the beginning as in Moses. Both Job and Jonah have already had a deep relationship with God before the story opens."

The story of Job in a nutshell: God makes a bet with the devil. God maintains that Job's piety and faith are unshakable, the devil claims he can shake Job's faith. God gives the devil license to do his worst against Job, to test him. Job is then subjected to a hideous escalation of torments: sickness, ruin of his crops and livestock, even the killing of his sons. All this time, Job's interlocutors remonstrate with him, telling him that these horrible torments can only be God's punishment for his sins and that Job must repent. Job keeps on saying that he has been faithful and pious, that these events cannot be punishment for his sins. At last in desperation, Job cries out to God, saying in effect, 'Oh Great God, declare yourself! Have I not been pious and faithful? Are these terrible things punishments? If I have been steadfast in my faith, then vindicate me against my accusers!' God's response is anything but peaceful: he thunders back, not answering Job's request at all (I paraphrase here): 'Shut up you pip-squeak; I have nothing to justify or vindicate. You are nothing, I am Everything!' Job is scared out of his wits. Neither Job nor his interlocutors is apprised of the bet with the devil; only we, the readers, know that Job's torments were gratuitous. Surely one of the most puzzling books in the OT, and a powerful image of an angry, arbitrary God. (One might go so far as to say that Yahweh behaves like a pagan god here.)

Originally posted by moonbus
Originally posted by Pudgenik: "When you experience the voice of God, you will feel a deep peace in your heart." To which I replied that Job did not and neither did his sons.

Pudgenik continued: "I will have to read Job again. To me the relationship of God with Job is like the relationship of Jonah and God. It is implied. In both cases the story starts mo ...[text shortened]... ngry, arbitrary God. (One might go so far as to say that Yahweh behaves like a pagan god here.)

only we, the readers, know that Job's torments were gratuitous. Surely one of the most puzzling books in the OT, and a powerful image of an angry, arbitrary God. (One might go so far as to say that Yahweh behaves like a pagan god here.)

I liked your summary of the book of Job.

I take issue with your concluding remark. Though it is true that the answer "WHY?" to Job's suffering is not given in the book of Job, just as you said, it is nonetheless given in the Bible latter.

Why God would do such an operation to strip a godly man down so is told the matured believer in the book of Second Corinthians.

Most people would not think to compare Paul and Job. But Paul was a real pioneer in the salvation of God. He was a trail blazer in the experience of Christ and God's purpose. And having in gone ahead of the seeker of Christ and God, he informs those following along about God's process of tearing down the "outward man" so that the inner man of God's dispensed life and nature can be built up in a person.

This is only a brief word here. I think other NT writers touched this process. But Paul touches it quite deeply in his "autobiographical" epistle - Second Corinthians. He speaks of the experience of he and his co-worker apostles. He speaks that the Christian may be braced for the event of so-called "bad things happening to good people" procedure of God maturing His saints.

""bad things happening to good people" ... God maturing His saints."

Certainly there is in some Biblical stories an element of 'hardening' of saints by testing them (Abraham and Isaac, for example). But not, I think, in the story of Job--whose piety and steadfastness of faith is never in doubt.

The NT marks a significant shift in the locus of what counts as bad things happening. In the OT, bad things happening meant exterior things, such as losing your health, your livelihood, your sons. The NT shifted this to the interior life: the only bad thing that really can happen to you is loss of faith. Everything external is 'vanity of vanities' and should no longer be regarded as having been sent by God (as punishment or anything else). Maybe the book of Job pre-sages this shift to some extent, in that Job's accusers are not vindicated (although Job himself does not come to realize this, the reader DOES).

Originally posted by KingOnPoint
LemonJello,
Will you respond please?. . .

Who has convinced you that you are righteous and holy and ready for anyone to judge you, even God, to determine whether you deserve anything but what unsaved sinners deserve according to God of the bible.

Where did you get your holiness and righteousness? Where did you get your sinlessness?

Respond to what? Your questions that are predicated on false assumptions regarding what I am convinced of?

I guess you think that my being baffled by the fact that you are somehow convinced that "all of us are evil in our human selves" means that I am somehow convinced that I am "righteous and holy and ready for anyone to judge [me], even God, to determine whether [I] deserve anything but what unsaved sinners deserve according to God of the bible".

But that's just bad inference on your part. I do not use words like 'righteous' or 'holy' in self-description, nor do I waste time thinking there is any reality to the fate that your book supposes lies in wait for unbelievers.

You need to get a grip.

Originally posted by moonbus
[b]""bad things happening to good people" ... God maturing His saints."

Certainly there is in some Biblical stories an element of 'hardening' of saints by testing them (Abraham and Isaac, for example). But not, I think, in the story of Job--whose piety and steadfastness of faith is never in doubt.

It is true that Job's righteousness is firmly established right up front.
And I suppose his faith too is given as strong from the very first opening of the book.

The NT marks a significant shift in the locus of what counts as bad things happening. In the OT, bad things happening meant exterior things, such as losing your health, your livelihood, your sons. The NT shifted this to the interior life: the only bad thing that really can happen to you is loss of faith. Everything external is 'vanity of vanities' and should no longer be regarded as having been sent by God (as punishment or anything else). Maybe the book of Job pre-sages this shift to some extent, in that Job's accusers are not vindicated (although Job himself does not come to realize this, the reader DOES).[/b]

What do you think of the fact that Job, from the first, attributes all these calamities to be from God ? Do you regard that as Job knowing that these things would not be happening unless God allowed them?

Or do you regard Job as not even considering that he might be in the hands of God's enemy, as he really was ?

It is a curious matter to me.

What Job thought is not really the point of the story, but we can speculate on this. I suppose he was genuinely puzzled, why all these terrible things were befalling him. One of the main points of the story is that he is harangued by a troupe of accusers who assume that his calamities must be punishment for his sins, and he can't believe this--he can't explain why it is all happening, but neither can he believe it is because his faith has failed. I think Job's response of fear and trembling in the face of a terrifyingly incomprehensible power is understandable and appropriate.

Originally posted by moonbus
What Job thought is not really the point of the story, but we can speculate on this. I suppose he was genuinely puzzled, why all these terrible things were befalling him. One of the main points of the story is that he is harangued by a troupe of accusers who assume that his calamities must be punishment for his sins, and he can't believe this--he can't expla ...[text shortened]... rembling in the face of a terrifyingly incomprehensible power is understandable and appropriate.

Job's thoughts are very precious in the story, I think, especially in his utterance that he KNOWS that his Redeemer lives.

Job 19:25 - "But I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will stand upon the earth;

And after this body of mine is destroyed, Outside my flesh I will look on God, Whom I, even I, will look on for myself, And my eyes will see; I and no other."

This is a prophecy too. Job utters his certainty that He will see God, God incarnate STAND upon the earth. God, Job's Redeemer at the end of history standing upon the earth. He will view God on earth despite that fact that his body may be dissolved away.

This is an important thought of Job in this book. Plus the fact that God says in the end that Job alone has spoken rightly concerning Him and not his three exceedingly wise friends.

" My anger is kindled against you [Eliphaz the Temanite] and against your two friends ... for you have not spoken concerning Me that which is right, as My servant Job has." (See 42:7,8).

Since Job utters so much, and so much out of his thoughts in the book, I feel his thoughts there are important, if not the point.

The implication is though that God agrees with Job that he is undeserving of what he has gotten. That is in the moral realm. He was right. He didn't deserve such horrendous treatment.

Job spoke rightly in that regard and his three wise friends were clueless.

Points taken.