The wisest thing Jesus ever said.

Originally posted by sonship

It wasn't my problem, it was yours. I don't have any problems right now.

Oh. Well if that is the case NO WONDER you are so upset, cursing, swearing, angry.

You don't HAVE any problems.
That's different.


Oh, by the way. I thought that I had erased or changed my mind on the girlfriend thing. Sorry, I guess I overlooked that I had not erased it. My apologies.

Calm yourself.

You have no clue what I am thinking.

You have a 100% record of getting it wrong.

The fact that you take the word of a book written by long dead monks over
mine about how I think and how I feel shows just how deeply
deluded you are.

If you are not prepared to accept what I/we say about our own thoughts
and feelings, our own beliefs, then there is no hope in getting you to accept
anything else we say if it contradicts [your interpretation of] the bible.

You have declared to all of us that there is utterly no point in engaging you
on any topic, because you will disregard anything and everything we say.

You are a waste of time and space.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I feel compelled to note that if Jesus was so wise, why is he mostly promoted by Christians? The wisdom of Confucious, or Budhist thinkers has spread around the world without the requirement of religion. If you do philosophy courses, you learn about Aristotle but not Jesus.
This seems to indicate that Jesus' wisdom is only wisdom within the context of Ch ...[text shortened]... lim. The chances of convincing us that they are the wisest words ever uttered, are even slimmer.

Hi twhitehead,

Firstly, Jesus never pretended to be a philosopher.

Secondly, it is mostly Christians (such as some on RHP) that have done the greatest damage to the reputation of Jesus' teachings.

Thirdly, Jesus' teachings in Mathews 5,6 and 7 (generally known as the Sermon on the Mount) closely parallel Buddhist teaching - universal truths. These would also qualify as "wise teachings", e.g. Turning the other cheek (i.e. Non-violence) , loving your neighbour, etc. Most of the great religions (including Buddhism and Confucianism) accept these.

Originally posted by sonship
I think that not only the word of God is correct, but even much secular poetry, liturature, writings, biographies, testimonials pretty much confirm the same.

My primary source is of course the Bible.
But even outside of the Bible too many confirmations exist that I am correct, though I may not be able to prove it.

Why did Alexander the Great die ...[text shortened]... to a degree there is some truth to that Buddhist proclamation.

so it ain't JUST the Bible.

alexander the great. why would conquering the world bring happiness? the answer is it doesnt. a person wanting to conquer the world has serious issues. i would suggest anybody who lived a life as violent as alexander would have emotional problems. alcohol is a depressant, anybody drinking too much will eventually become unhappy. nothing in this story indicates his lack of god caused his sadness, if it was it would be particularly unfair as alexander lived before the word of christ.

solomon - very little is known of solomon, most historians question his existence. but for arguments sake lets say he did exist -
why would a man want 600 wives, again this suggests he already has issues. power, wealth and wisdom do not create happiness on their own and are no proof that spiritual happiness is what was lacking. there are many wealthy people who are happy, just as there are many unhappy wealthy people.

proper know (forum celeb) - you know nothing about his happiness levels, if he has ever had moments of sadness in his life you have no way of knowing if it was caused by a lack of god. there are many reason why people can feel sadness or happiness.


procol horum, whiter shade of pale - is a song about sex.


jimmy hendrix, dont know that song, but i know jimmy was a drug addict and had a difficult childhood. two things that combined can cause depression. not sure where god comes in? i would also add that writing sad songs that question the meaning of life do not indicate that there is something spiritually missing.

Ingamar Bergman - not a fan, again questioning the meaning of life does not mean that god is needed to fill that question.

But it is common to all men and women, in the fall we all became losers

speak for yourself. im doing just fine.


so, what evidence do you have that non christians are less content than christians?

Originally posted by twhitehead

The real question is 'can it be shared'? You have insulated yourself by suggesting that it might not be possible for some of us to grasp, but now you feel like preaching. So either you have to give up your security, or give up the preaching. Whats it going to be?

This difficulty that some may have in grasping has nothing to do with intelligence, education level, and intellectual training.

If I say some could not appreciate it it has to do with spiritual experience.
I do not exclude myself. I think I insinuated that I did not grasp this at first.

You see, what you don't understand is that just as there is NATURAL growth and maturity so also is there SPIRITUAL growth and maturity.

I did not say that I am mature and no longer need to grow - poor guys down there. I said there is SPIRITUAL growth and maturity just like there is NATURAL growth and maturation.

Now you know a man is BORN - naturally.
Well what you don't know is that a man can be BORN - spiritually.

As for wanting to preach ?
Who me ?

Why do you suppose Jesus would request to be baptized ?
He wasn't a sinful person.
He had nothing to repent of.
He was suppose to be the morally righteous one from God qualified to "save His people from their sins"

Why would He request that John the Baptist plunge him into the water as a grave and raise him up again, in ritual washing, in ritual death, burial, and rising ?

Here is the wisdom. It was not because He wanted to make a statement that He was BAD or EVIL or needed to be washed.

It was because He wanted to show the world that even if He were the BEST man, the most good man, the most upstanding man, He was not going to live by that. He was going to live by the Father.

Reality is beyond the matter of being bad or good. It is beyond "the knowledge of good and evil" . Reality is a matter of living by the Father as life.

Not terribly easy to get.

"Even if I am good, even the BEST. I do not trust myself to live out that. I live out from the Father within me." paraphrased interpretation. All righteousness - was to live one with the Father.

Another example of this.

"Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me." (John 7:16)

He could teach on His own speaking His own wise words. But He came to speak what the Father gave Him to speak.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me he also shall live because of Me." (6:57)

Jesus PIONEERED the way for a man to live by and in mingling with the Father in a profound union.

"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world." (8:26)

Jesus, though a PERFECT man, did not live by Himself but denied Himself to live by the Father. So it was fitting that He too undergo baptism to demonstrate that He needed to be put down, buried and washed and raised. That is not washed of moral uncleaness but washed of independence from the Father.

I had, on His own, many things He could say and judge. "But" the Father Who sent Him was true. Look at it again.

"I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, .... BUT ... He who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him, these things I speak to the world."

You can drop out now and formulate whatever tactic you are concocting to contradict me. But I muse on a bit more for some of the readers.

The big questions is this: Is there a Person who is SO trustworthy that we can deliver into His hands our entire lives for Him to live in us in a kind of united way ? Is there a LOVE which has our benefit so in mind that we could trust that love to that extent ?

The answer is that there must be. That is there must be a Person, an uncreated Person whose care for the well being and benefit of us all is so vast, so intense, so all-incompassing, that we could be grafted INTO that Person so to speak to live a life in oneness with that Person.

The Gospel says there is such a Person - the Father, it calls this Person. The Father.

Originally posted by stellspalfie

im doing just fine.

Glad you feel so self confident.

But I am pretty sure that you have left at least some people behind, who would recall their treatment by you and might not agree that you were always doing "just fine."

You messed over some people. And you thought your were doing "just fine." But they recall your trespasses against them just like YOU recall others trespasses against YOU. And though you boast that you are doing "just fine" they still remember being treated like dirt.

The day will come when you will answer for your doing "just fine" over everyone in your life. And you'll realize that "just fine" was not quite good enough to the One to whom all our doings ultimately matter.

Or is there nothing that you would not be ashamed of if it were possible for your whole life to be broadcast before the world on a screen ?

Jesus. Now He did just fine. More than just fine He did gloriously. You may think you are doing just fine. But God created us to do more than be just fine. He created us to do gloriously.

So "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Actually, in the fallen self neither you nor I are just fine.
And we are neither glorious. Normal is to be glorious as the Son of God was glorious.

Originally posted by CalJust
Thirdly, Jesus' teachings in Mathews 5,6 and 7 (generally known as the Sermon on the Mount) closely parallel Buddhist teaching - universal truths. These would also qualify as "wise teachings", e.g. Turning the other cheek (i.e. Non-violence) , loving your neighbour, etc. Most of the great religions (including Buddhism and Confucianism) accept these.

Well maybe you should read more of the thread. I do not disagree that Jesus threw out 'wise teachings' similar to other people. But as I said earlier, we interpret them as 'wise' because we instantly recognise that they are true. Universal truths as you say. But the initial claim by sonship was that if the whole Jesus story was made up then we should consider the writer that made it up to have been the wisest person ever. To substantiate such a claim one would at least need to show that Jesus said something other than a universal truth known to practically everyone.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
alexander the great. why would conquering the world bring happiness? the answer is it doesnt. a person wanting to conquer the world has serious issues. i would suggest anybody who lived a life as violent as alexander would have emotional problems. alcohol is a depressant, anybody drinking too much will eventually become unhappy. nothing in this story in ...[text shortened]... t fine.


so, what evidence do you have that non christians are less content than christians?

so, what evidence do you have that non christians are less content than christians?

Quote me where I said exactly that.

Your next post to me should contain those exact words in quotations to the effect I wrote

"non christians are less content than christians"

Show me how "just fine" you are doing in the department of not attempting to change a person's words and put them into his mouth.

Originally posted by sonship
This difficulty that some may have in grasping has nothing to do with intelligence, education level, and intellectual training.

Yes, I got that. You were basically saying 'if it turns out you don't find it wise, then I can always claim that it is because of something about you that prevents you from seeing it'.

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that other posters are right and honest open discussion with you is simply not possible.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Well maybe you should read more of the thread. I do not disagree that Jesus threw out 'wise teachings' similar to other people. But as I said earlier, we interpret them as 'wise' because we instantly recognise that they are true. Universal truths as you say. But the initial claim by sonship was that if the whole Jesus story was made up then we should cons ...[text shortened]... ed to show that Jesus said something other than a universal truth known to practically everyone.

I totally disagree that Jesus proclaimed "universal truths known to practically everyone".

Sure, with 21st century knowledge (hindsight, if you will) of psychology, we can smugly proclaim them as obvious. However, to his hearers, his views where not only counter-intuitive, but revolutionary, and dangerously so. They finally got him killed.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]Have you ever had real fun and still felt empty inside?

No.

Have you ever gone out under a moonlite night of beauty and asked "Why is this not enough to make me happy?"

No.

Have you ever been in the midst of a party where lots of enjoyment is being loudly had, yet within you still feel like something is missing in you? ...[text shortened]... e fails there I'm afraid. Your 'Arm Chair Psychology' is so far wide of the mark it's laughable.[/b]

I've always felt the happiest people can appreciate the simple things. How sad indeed that even quote "real" fun still leaves some people feeling empty inside [to use their own hackneyed argument against them: maybe they never truly had any 'real' fun, because they wouldn't have stopped if they had.]

Originally posted by twhitehead

Well maybe you should read more of the thread. I do not disagree that Jesus threw out 'wise teachings' similar to other people. But as I said earlier, we interpret them as 'wise' because we instantly recognise that they are true.

But if you do not recognize them as true you argue that He probably didn't say it, was misquoted, got lost in translation or something else.

Selectively, you choose what you approve of.
That you will call wise.
Other words you do not believe you will call unwise.

"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

If you have not yet realized the truth of that there is probably no reason why you would call it a wise saying.

For many human beings who have come to realize that moment by moment they cannot live without being in close contact with the available Spirit of Jesus Christ, the cannot live. They have to EAT Him. They have to take Him IN. They have to masticate His words, digest His words, eat His words and live in His presence.

To them the profound truth and wisdom is evident. As lived by the Father so we live by Him. We have to touch Him constantly. And He is available to BE touched deep within.

So recognizing wisdom is also a timing matter. Some see the wisdom before others in time. And some see the wisdom when some will perhaps NEVER come to see the wisdom.

Universal truths as you say. But the initial claim by sonship was that if the whole Jesus story was made up then we should consider the writer that made it up to have been the wisest person ever.

That was not only my claim. That was a claim of others. IE, whoever made up the character of Jesus Christ has to be considered the wisest person who ever imagined up a fictional character.

Who do you point to as a better human being than Jesus Christ ?
Whose your candidate to surpass Him in all that is considered good in man ?

To substantiate such a claim one would at least need to show that Jesus said something other than a universal truth known to practically everyone.

If I understand you, you are demanding something both wise and that no one else said. And when I give you that, where else would you like to move your goalpost ?

What over teacher ever said that He would come INTO His disciples WITH God to live in them ?

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

Expected response:

1.) It is not a wise saying.

2.) He never said it. Someone THOUGHT He said it, probably.

I cannot think of any Teacher saying that he with God would together as a "We" come into those under his teaching and make an abode with them.

And the wisdom of the saying is in the fact that if God and Christ / God IN Christ as the Divine We do NOT come and live within the follower of Jesus, he or she can never make it to follow His teaching. We cannot do it without Him living in us.

So it is an exceedingly wise teaching - He and His Father will come and make an abode within the follower of Jesus, enabling and empowering such a one to be a Christian.

The fact is there. How much a Christian avails herself or himself TO the fact is another story completely. But the fact is there. If the Triune God does not come and live within you you cannot be a follower of the Son of God.

Originally posted by sonship

im doing just fine.

Glad you feel so self confident.

But I am pretty sure that you have left at least some people behind, who would recall their treatment by you and might not agree that you were always doing "just fine."

You messed over some people. And you thought your were doing "just fine." But they recall your trespas ...[text shortened]... st fine.
And we are neither glorious. Normal is to be glorious as the Son of God was glorious.

Glad you feel so self confident.

its not about confidence. im describing my emotional state. im doing fine, i have no big holes or longings or things missing. im pretty content with my life. my dogs old and ill, which is causing me some concern, but im sure that has nothing to do with god.

But I am pretty sure that you have left at least some people behind, who would recall their treatment by you and might not agree that you were always doing "just fine."

what on earth are you on about??? who said i was always 'just fine'?? ive been a bit of a dick in the past (more thoughtless than anything else). that has no bearing or connection to having a lack of god.....proven by the fact that christians can also be dicks.


And though you boast that you are doing "just fine" they still remember being treated like dirt.

claiming im doing fine is hardly a boast.
i dont treat people like dirt.
if i did (hypothetically) treat people like dirt in the past, what relevance does that have on my current happiness?


The day will come when you will answer for your doing "just fine"

i have to answer for being happy and content?????? what????


Or is there nothing that you would not be ashamed of if it were possible for your whole life to be broadcast before the world on a screen

ive done somethings i wouldnt want my mother to see. i made some mistake growing up, we all do, id say im embarrassed by some of the the things i did, but i can laugh about it now, they provide my friends and family plenty of ammo to make fun of me. nothing im ashamed of. it sounds more like you must have a lot of baggage sonship?

even by christian standards im not much of a sinner.


i really am fine. ive got a wonderful wife, two great kids and we all love each other and make each other happy.......what more does a man need? god??? why would i introduce a meglomaniac, murdering, self obsessed, misogynist into my harmonious world ....no thankyou.

Originally posted by sonship

so, what evidence do you have that non christians are less content than christians?

Quote me where I said exactly that.

Your next post to me should contain those exact words in quotations to the effect I wrote

[b]"non christians are less content than christians"

Show me how "just fine" you are doing in the department of not attempting to change a person's words and put them into his mouth.[/b]

Quote me where I said exactly that.

i didnt say you did. you said that non-christians suffer from depression like symptoms.......if that is so then there should be a measurable difference in the happiness levels of people who have got god and those that do not.

so i am asking you what evidence do you have that this is true? or are you saying that the unhappiness caused by these depression like symptoms do not actually effect our happiness?!?!?!?!?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
OK. Let's hear it.
Because I can't think of anything that isn't taught in primary school.

Matthew 12:36&37

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Or perhaps;

Matthew 21:16
"Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?"

Or maybe;

Luke 6:45
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

Originally posted by stellspalfie

what on earth are you on about??? who said i was always 'just fine'?? ive been a bit of a dick in the past (more thoughtless than anything else). that has no bearing or connection to having a lack of god.....proven by the fact that christians can also be dicks.

You sinned against people. You, like everybody else this side of Adam, trespassed against some people.

You yourself have been on the receiving end of a trespass.
You didn't like it.
Someone was on the receiving end from your trespass.
They didn't like it just the way you didn't like it.

But the act itself damaged you.
It left a stain on your character.
A truly "just FINE" person would have NO stain, no blemish, no defect.
He would be "just fine" before God and man.

I am worse than you. I need a Savior though.
You still think you will appear before God as "just fine".

And though you boast that you are doing "just fine" they still remember being treated like dirt.

claiming im doing fine is hardly a boast.

Speak for yourself, you said. You are doing just fine.
Sounds very much like a boast.

i dont treat people like dirt.

At times you did.
It is there as a record even on your own character.
In sinning against someone else you damaged your own character.

Were there not some people that you never again had an occasion to be reconciled to ? Were you able ALWAYS to make restitution ?

Probably not.
Perhaps you damaged someone and did not even realize it.
Perhaps this very day, your writings will encourage some reader to sin.
They took a que from YOU - "There's no God to call me to account. Do what you wish."

But you're just fine.

if i did (hypothetically) treat people like dirt in the past, what relevance does that have on my current happiness?

Are you happy completely knowing that you set in circle of misfortune which someone else is still suffering from ?

Suppose the offended party went off and learned to do the same thing. They learned from you. Others got damaged. Are you doing just fine knowing that after you your words and deeds still may be operating in the world like spreading germs ?

The day will come when you will answer for your doing "just fine"

i have to answer for being happy and content?????? what????

It all ends with your contentment, your happiness ?

There are also some ostriches who bury their heads in the sand so as to not see somethings that they wish were not there.

You are not doing just fine. You are just not caught up with yet.
The drug addict tells himself he is doing just fine.
The alcoholic tells himself that he too is doing just fine.

And the man living with no thought of the law of God assures himself that he is also doing just fine. That is why people do not like the word of Christ.

Anyway, as I said, your inward conscience is very personal matter.

ive done somethings i wouldnt want my mother to see. i made some mistake growing up, we all do, id say im embarrassed by some of the the things i did, but i can laugh about it now, they provide my friends and family plenty of ammo to make fun of me. nothing im ashamed of. it sounds more like you must have a lot of baggage sonship?

My baggage went to Calvary, to the cross of Jesus.
I sent all of my baggage to the One Who died and rose for my reconciliation to the Perfect and Righteous Father.