07 Jan 06
Originally posted by telerionIt's not an argument for/against it. it's simply fact. If God steps in and stops all bad things from happening, then He would have to control those people who would do bad thing (intentionally or unintentionally). Thus, those people would not be free to act as they wish, i.e. they would not have free will. And since none of us are perfect, we all do bad things from time to time, thus we would all have our free will removed. It's not an argument for God allowing suffering, suffering is simply and outcome of the existance of free will and the only way to remove suffering is to remove free will.
The first problem with this is that it does not follow that the removal of free will is a good argument for God allowing evil/suffering to persist. You are assuming that a world with free will and evil/suffering is better than one without free will and without evil/suffering.
The second, and most fundamental problem, is that your statement is false. ...[text shortened]... free will? Are you saying that God would be restricting the free will of bacteria and viruses?[/b]
You are correct. It does not need to be a moral chioce that can be made. As long as any choice can be made we have free will. It then follows that if we can't make any choice we want, we don't have free will. And if I can't choose to do something bad, if that choice is taken from me by God so He can stop the bad thing from happening, then I don't truly have free will.
In order for God to prevent all bad things from happening He'd have to control us humans to prevent us from starting something bad. That's where the loss of free will comes in, when He controls us to prevent the bad things.
Daniel
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by DragonFriendwhy does elimintation of those evils that are not caused by man require the elimination of free will? They are unconnected.
Nor did I say they were.
I asked where the poster would like God to draw the line on stopping bad things from happening. Child illness was a possible place to draw that line. The only link in my response to free will was that, if God removed all bad things from happening, He would also remove free will.
Why are you convinced there is no God? What makes you so sure?
Daniel
I am convinced there is no god by the same evidence that convinces you there is. The evidence of my heart.
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by DragonFriendAn interesting use of the word 'fact' in the first line
It's not an argument for/against it. it's simply fact. If God steps in and stops all bad things from happening, then He would have to control those people who would do bad thing (intentionally or unintentionally). Thus, those people would not be free to act as they wish, i.e. they would not have free will. And since none of us are perfect, we all do bad ...[text shortened]... he loss of free will comes in, when He controls us to prevent the bad things.
Daniel
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by aardvarkhomeBut I'm not convinced by my heart. I'm convinced by logic.
I am convinced there is no god by the same evidence that convinces you there is. The evidence of my heart.
When I first took God seriously my question was: Which god should I worship? Allah? Christ? Vishnu? Braham? There are many. Piece by piece I have logic'ed (if that's a word) my way into believing the Christian faith.
Take the book we call the Bible, for example. A collection of 66 works written by 40+ authors over 1000s of years, yet it all has a consistent theme and message.
Or prophesy. The Bible contains predictions of events to come, some written 100s of years before the event.
If you are interested in the truth, I can help you find it. But you'll have to do the work. Anything I can talk you into, someone else can talk you out of. But if you do the work yourself, you'll believe the conclusion you come to.
DF
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzThat was obviously the case on 9/11
Hey STANG my boy,
Here's one for you.
Today, a 21 year old girl was attacked by a shark / sharks whilst swimming off the coast of Brisbane. She was on a church group day out. Ironic huh - god doesn't care enough even about his own?
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by DragonFriendWhen I first took God seriously my question was: Which god should I worship? Allah? Christ? Vishnu? Braham? There are many.
DF
I don't believe this for a second. Are you saying you woke up one day and decided, "Hey, I'll think I'll start worshipping a creator!" and then proceeded to study every religion there is? Highly doubtful. More likely you were indoctrinated in to one particular belief system, and later realized there were alternatives. By that time, though, it was too late.
Take the book we call the Bible, for example. A collection of 66 works written by 40+ authors over 1000s of years, yet it all has a consistent theme and message.
So what? All this shows is the bible has been copied numerous times. While there might be some textual integrity (I don't think so, personally), but this does not mean the thing isn't wholesale fiction.
Or prophesy. The Bible contains predictions of events to come, some written 100s of years before the event.
There's an excellent thread somewhere in the back pages regarding the nonsense of biblical prophesy. Just to give you a couple of failed ones, let's try Isa19:5-7 (the Nile still looks pretty wet to me) and Isa17:1-2 (Damascus is still on the map, IIRC).
If you are interested in the truth, I can help you find it.
lol. That's pretty funny.
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by David CI don't believe this for a second.
I was 31 years old before I took God seriously. Prior to that time I spoke with many different people about many different religions, but I hadn't read any of the religious texts, intentionally. I was raised Catholic but fell away in high school when I saw all of the hypocricy in that church. When I started to look towards God again, a friend of mine was getting into Hinduism, which made me ask my question. To answer it, I applied a mathmatical approach. In a math proof, you start with an assumption and then either prove it or not. My assumption was: if the Bible story of the flood is true, then the Christian god must be the real god because if the others existed they wouldn't let their people drown. From there I researched my way into Christianty. You can believe it or not, but that's the truth.
this does not mean the thing isn't wholesale fiction.
What would it take to convince you of the truth in the Bible? Have you done any research concerning this? The Bible is written in human history. Sodom and Gomorrah really did exist (we haven't found the cities, but we have found records in other cities that dealt with them). The city of Tyre was really thrown into the ocean, stone for stone (not what is called Tyre today, that exists in a different spot). The Hitties were a civilization that was thought to be Biblical fiction, until they were discovered in the 1st 1/2 of the 1900s (I forget the exact date). The book is not fiction and the proof is there if the research is done.
the nonsense of biblical prophesy.
No, not all prophsies in the Bible have come to pass yet. But how do you explain the ones that have?
lol. That's pretty funny.
Please explain why you think the Bible is fiction. (or should we open a new thread for that)
DF
08 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DragonFriendMy assumption was: if the Bible story of the flood is true, then the Christian god must be the real god because if the others existed they wouldn't let their people drown.
So, you are using an a priori belief drawn from the Christian bible as a starting point for believing the Christian bible. Seems circular, IMO. What evidence do you have to assume the bible's version of the flood myth is the "true" version, over that of, say, the Sumerian legend? I might remind you, the Sumerian epic was written much earlier, therefore would have been closer to the proposed flood event. In fact, what evidence do you have to present that demonstrates a "worldwide flood catastrophe" actually occurred?
What would it take to convince you of the truth in the Bible?
Much more than just the fact that it (the bible) exists, I can assure you.
Have you done any research concerning this?
A bit.
The Bible is written in human history. Sodom and Gomorrah...
Nonsense. If I write a story about little green elves saving mankind from flesh eating demons and base it around real-world geographical locations like Madrid and New York, this somehow makes it true? You might want to double check your "logic" on this one.
No, not all prophsies in the Bible have come to pass yet. But how do you explain the ones that have?
Wishful thinking on the part of puerile apologetics. Search for the thread I mentioned eariler.
Please explain why you think the Bible is fiction. (or should we open a new thread for that)
I didn't say it was. I simply stated: your reasoning that "66 books, 40+ authors, yadda yadda yadda" is not sufficient proof that the book is "the truth". Although, as anyone in this forum will tell you, I strongly believe the NT portion of the xtian bible to be a complete fabrication. That would, however, require a new thread.
08 Jan 06
'there is no god'
lets apply logic to this, with the help of a babel fish
if god does not exist, then the babel fish proves it.
if god does exist, then the babel fish proves that it does not exist.
got it so far?? good.
that means that god can only exist if people believe in it (he/she) without proof.
so if people say that god has spoken to them, then god does not exist.
thus, god is not real. logically, this works.
08 Jan 06
Originally posted by i am scientistsNow, that one is beyond me. God, if (s)he exists, cannot make everyone good at chess. That just doesn't make any logical sense. Then noone will be the worst chessplayer and how can that be? :
also, if god existed, then it would ensure that i was actually good at chess