Thought Crimes

Originally posted by KellyJay
Because I'm on a roll with some verse on thoughts, here are a few on the heart. 🙂
I find when I struggle the main battle is here.

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

Proverbs 24:12
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your ...[text shortened]... God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

In all those passages I cannot see anything that says that a man will be judged by his thoughts. However there are many that says a man will be judged by his deeds, his works, his actions.

Evil intentions and evil thoughts precede evil actions and evil deeds and does not lead to good works and good deeds. Thats all the Bible is saying.

Originally posted by Rajk999
In all those passages I cannot see anything that says that a man will be judged by his thoughts. However there are many that says a man will be judged by his deeds, his works, his actions.

Evil intentions and evil thoughts precede evil actions and evil deeds and does not lead to good works and good deeds. Thats all the Bible is saying.

If I were you I'd look at the post that had to do with thoughts and not the one that had
to do with the heart.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If something is not in the Bible then it is not the Christianity preached by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

You are grievously mistaken on this.

1. Jesus did not preach Christianity. He was a Jew and preached the Jewish law (the Torah). There was no such religion as Christianity in Jesus's lifetime.

2. The Bible is only the menu. You're missing the real meal.

Originally posted by moonbus
You are grievously mistaken on this.

1. Jesus did not preach Christianity. He was a Jew and preached the Jewish law (the Torah). There was no such religion as Christianity in Jesus's lifetime.

2. The Bible is only the menu. You're missing the real meal.

You obviously have not read the New Testament.

Even a Sunday School kid can tell you that when confronted with those who wanted to practice the Law of Moses written in the Torah, Jesus condemned them. Paul, the most vocal and forceful of the Pharisees was stopped in his tracks for practicing the Law of Moses.

The practice of Christianity started with Jesus Christ. Maybe you need to see the word Christianity in the Gospels. A more discerning reader can see the teachings of Christ all over the New Testament and that is what Christianity is.. teachings of righteous living, of love, charity and good works.

Read what Paul wrote on the New Covenant, which is brought in by Christ.

Because I'm on a roll with some verse on thoughts, here are a few on the heart.
I find when I struggle the main battle is here.

The main battle for the Christian is here because the mind a part of the heart.
The heart is the mind, emotion, will, plus the conscience.

And transformation takes place firstly in the renewing of the mind.

" And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind ... "(Rom. 12:2a)

On a "molecular" level, on a very low and detailed level, the Lord Jesus can transform our soul by renewing our mind in the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

This is another most precious verse. How vital to guard the heart.

Proverbs 24:12
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?

There is no possibility to fool God. None whatsoever.

[b] " .... and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the inward parts; and I will give to each one of you according to your works." (Rev. 2:23b)

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Amen. It is unspeakably comforting.

Lets turn it around: what will be judged? Your body or your soul?

The entire being can be judged.
And the entire being can receive salvation.

The Jewish law at the time of Jesus tended to focus on acts rather than motives. Jesus shifted the moral ground to the motive: not what you put into your mouth defiles you [e.g., eating pork and shellfish], but what comes out of it [i.e., lies and false testimony]

Jesus really heightened the law in many places. These are His sayings which begin with "But I say to you ..." in contrast to what the Old Testament said to them. And you are right that this "shifting" ( I would say ) was a "shifting" upward. He taught the highest level of morality which is impossible to live apart from Himself living within us as the grace of God.

Here are a couple of these instances where He uplifted the level of morality from merely physical into the inner motive of the heart.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery."
But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27,28)

You see? He uplifted the level of morality. Or you could say He made the demand more penetrating and deeper. Actually, Jesus was just describing Himself. He was talking about the way He Himself had lived day by day for 30 years.

He is the only man who lived this perfect life. He is still the only man who can live this kind of life. But NOW He can live it within us, if we receive the Spirit of Jesus into our innermost being.

Again.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment."

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. (Matt. 5:21,22)

If in reading these passages, your reaction is " I cannot make it. I cannot do this" then you got the right reaction. No one can. We call someone "knucklehead" or some other term of contempt and are in danger of the fire of Gehenna. We simply cannot be this pure.

But Jesus can. And the Gospel is that He can forgive us and He can also come into our being and live again in a blending, mingled way in our being.

Where He points out the demand, He Himself is the supply to meet that demand. He has the life that can be empowering grace within us.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You obviously have not read the New Testament.

Even a Sunday School kid can tell you that when confronted with those who wanted to practice the Law of Moses written in the Torah, Jesus condemned them. Paul, the most vocal and forceful of the Pharisees was stopped in his tracks for practicing the Law of Moses.

The practice of Christianity started with ...[text shortened]... rity and good works.

Read what Paul wrote on the New Covenant, which is brought in by Christ.

I have read the NT.

When Jesus said, "not one jot of the law shall pass away" (Matt 5:18), the law he meant was the Jewish law. No other.

Originally posted by sonship
Jesus really heightened the law in many places. These are His sayings which begin with [b]"But I say to you ..." in contrast to what the Old Testament said to them. And you are right that this "shifting" ( I would say ) was a "shifting" upward. He taught the highest level of morality which is impossible to live apart from Himself living within us as the ...[text shortened]... But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment.[/b]

Getting back to the OP here, if Jesus shifted the point of application of the law from action to motive--or "uplifted" if you prefer--that is tantamount to saying that not only are actions crimes or sins, but thoughts (motives/intentions/feelings) are, too. Not only is consummating sex with a neighbor's wife adultery, lusting after her is, too. Not only is striking one's brother in anger a sin, just being angry at him without striking him is, too. So, yes, there is thought-crime in the Christian scheme of things.

Originally posted by moonbus
Getting back to the OP here, if Jesus shifted the point of application of the law from action to motive--or "uplifted" if you prefer--that is tantamount to saying that not only are actions crimes or sins, but thoughts (motives/intentions/feelings) are, too. Not only is consummating sex with a neighbor's wife adultery, lusting after her is, too. Not only is s ...[text shortened]... without striking him is, too. So, yes, there is thought-crime in the Christian scheme of things.

Imagine this scenario:
Your spouse sees someone he/she is attracted to. He/she decides to have an affair with that person. He / she books a hotel room. Something happens and they are unable to go through with it.
Is booking the hotel room the thing that you will consider betrayal by your spouse? If he / she had not booked the hotel room (an action) then would everything be just fine?

The thing is that I see a number of posters in this thread that assume without reason that particular thoughts would necessarily be criminal. Why would lusting after your neighbours wife be necessarily a sin? Not all actions are sins, why would all thoughts be sins?

The main concern people have with countries like North Korea is they actually disagree with the government about what should nor should not be a 'sin'.

Getting back to the OP here, if Jesus shifted the point of application of the law from action to motive--or "uplifted" if you prefer--that is tantamount to saying that not only are actions crimes or sins, but thoughts (motives/intentions/feelings) are, too. Not only is consummating sex with a neighbor's wife adultery, lusting after her is, too. Not only is striking one's brother in anger a sin, just being angry at him without striking him is, too. So, yes, there is thought-crime in the Christian scheme of things.

What I see is Jesus shinning a more penetrating light to expose the root of the action.
It seems some people's priority here is "Am I guilty for the thought?" What I think Jesus was getting at was to show the inward inclination must be addressed for there to be healing.

Contrary to a despairing reaction of "How guilty am I then ?" the response intended is "How deeply I need the Savior Jesus then."

There is no question that we are guilty. But we are sick and in need of a Physician as well. This teaching in Matthew I find comforting. If there were no Physician to be able to heal from the inside out, then I would only find it condemning.

God's conviction is never to just leave one feeling hopeless and condemned, depressed and frustrated. It should lead one to repentance and the desire to come close to Christ for saving from the inside out.

I would not encourage you to stop with "Thought Crimes" in the sense of "Well, how guilty am I ?" Christ's teaching shows that to enter into the kingdom of the heavens" is not by play acting or superficial hypocrisy such as the religionists of His day or any day display. But a radical salvation going to the root of man's fallen being, renewing, transforming, healing from the inside out.

" For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)

This is not "No one will enter." Rather it is "No one can enter apart from by Christ's salvation."

I encourage readers of the Gospel of Matthew not to immediately look into their own resources and go away sorrowful that they cannot be kingdom people of God. Rather it is to look away to Jesus and realize that only He can bring you through to be kingdom people of God.

And, mind you, it is God's good pleasure to give His people the kingdom -

" Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has been well pleased to give you the kingdom." (Luke 12:32)

This post is brief. And if you feel something was not addressed in what you wrote to me, you are probably right.

It is difficult for me to discuss a topic called Thought Crimes and just come to a terminal point of saying "Wow. Look how terribly GUILTY we all are." It is hard for me to end the matter there. I don't think anything said in all of the Gospel of Matthew is meant to END the matter there - with "thought crimes" impossible to be free from.

Originally posted by moonbus
Are you one of those people who think that if something is not in the Bible then it is not Christianity?

No, I'm one of those people who, when offered a Cardinal's opinion when I asked for a scripture to back up a given statement, tends to question the claim.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Getting back to the OP here, if Jesus shifted the point of application of the law from action to motive--or "uplifted" if you prefer--that is tantamount to saying that not only are actions crimes or sins, but thoughts (motives/intentions/feelings) are, too. Not only is consummating sex with a neighbor's wife adultery, lusting after her is, too. Not ...[text shortened]... Matthew is meant to END the matter there - with "thought crimes" impossible to be free from.[/b]

I do believe there is a difference between having a thought and living with a thought!
Being tempted isn't a sin, but lusting after is so acknowledging the neighbor's wife is
attractive in one's thought life doesn't mean that you are spending your time desiring
her, you cross that line when you spend your time doing just that.

What Jesus said that our thoughts can cause us to sin is just to show us how needy we
are before God. We live in a world where we are bombarded daily with imagery that
designed to cause us to lust after several things others seem to have not just sex, but
that is one of the biggest.

Reading the news and stories online the thing I find is that when we act upon our lusts
and hate we reveal what was in our hearts, but when we act upon our feelings of love
and caring we see the otherside. The roots of all of our actions start within us even so we
should really check ourselves when we are hateful towards another if we care what
God thinks. Jesus was clear about how fine this is being called by God!

Showing love towards others is our goal, our sinful nature is so huge we miss how bad
we are by justifying ourselves as we justify things that God has said is bad. We so need
our sins forgiven because we are not good enough on our own.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And
anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

I do believe there is a difference between having a thought and living with a thought!

There is no sin in noticing attractive women. Women are God's creation. And we have to hold God the Creator responsible for the human attractiveness.

So it is not the SEEING which Jesus speaks to.
It is the gazing with an evil intention.

It is not the first look. It is the second look with intent - "to lust after her".
In other words, it is not the first step of seeing that He convicts of.
It is the step of intentionally gazing with an evil intent Christ exposes as the heart problem. It is the second look with the third step " ... looks at a woman IN ORDER TO ... lust after her ..." .

If you are fairly typical man and reading this causes you to say "Fellas, we're finished !"
then you have gotten that point right. However throughout the Gospel of Matthew we should hang on to the introductory remarks about Jesus.

" And she [Mary] will bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for it is He who shall save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21)

1.) We have to become among "His people".
2.) We may trust that He will save "His people" from their sins - within and without.

That He will save His people from the guilt of sin is seen in His redemptive sacrifice.

" For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

He died to remove the guilt of sins.
And He plants Himself into man as "the word of the kingdom" to supply the life power to save His people from the power of the sin nature.

We can deduce this in many places. One I refer to is His parable about the seed of the kingdom in the four kinds of soil. The soil representing the heart of man. And the last cultivated soil, with rocks and thorns dealt with and removed, allows the life seed of His teaching to grow and bear fruit.

" But others [seeds] fell on good earth and yielded fruit, one a hundredfold, and one sixtyfold, and one thiryfold." (13:8)

And His corresponding brief interpretation of this saying.

"But the one sown on the good earth, this is he who hears the word and understands, who by all means bears fruit and produces, one a hundrefold, and one sixtyfold, and one thirtyfold." (13:23)

The bearing of fruit for the kingdom has to be the growing of righteous living, godly living, living expressing the indwelling Christ from a human heart kept, cultivated, cared for. And you alluded to the Proverb about keeping one's heart.

The point of this post is that the demand of the kingdom life is very high.
But the supply to meet the demand is very effective, full of powerful life, and fruitful to produce value for God's righteous kingdom.

Being tempted isn't a sin, but lusting after is so acknowledging the neighbor's wife is
attractive in one's thought life doesn't mean that you are spending your time desiring
her, you cross that line when you spend your time doing just that.

It is true that we can be too introspective and feel overly guilty.
To the Christian who is growing normally, he will allow the Holy Spirit to go deeper and deeper into his life, trusting that Jesus can grant us self control.

At first he sees trouble when it is up in his face.
As he grows, he sees trouble coming a mile away.

At first the outward action he confesses as a sin to be repented of.
As the Holy Spirit deepens His influence over his heart, he because more sensitive.
He pulls his mind back from wrong thinking as a hand is pulled back from fire.

He sees trouble coming way, way down the road.

The anger, the lust, the love of self, the hypocrisy, the anxiety, the self pity, and all the things infesting the fallen nature, Christ is a Great Physician to heal from.

Instead of pouting like athiest Christopher Hitchens that God is like a dictator from North Korea, we are relieved and comforted that Christ is a wonderful Doctor who can care and heal and liberate on such a low even subconscious level.

What a Savior !

Originally posted by sonship

I do believe there is a difference between having a thought and living with a thought!

There is no sin in noticing attractive women. Women are God's creation. And we have to hold God the Creator responsible for the human attractiveness.

So it is not the SEEING which Jesus speaks to.
It is the gazing with an evil intention.

It ...[text shortened]... r who can care and heal and liberate on such a low even subconscious level.

What a Savior !

God is better to us than we deserve.

Some complain that God's knowledge of their every move and every thought is dictatorial.

But if you should lose a loved one, like a mother or child, and be plunged into sadness, you'll be glad that Jesus can bring you from one moment to the next. No one else can support you inwardly like this.

He was made in all respects like us, yet without sin, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God.

Just to call on His name "Oh Lord Jesus. Oh Lord Jesus" can put us in touch with this Prince of Peace.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusts in thee.

King James 2000 Bible
You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on you: because he trusts in you.

We are coming into days in which we long for peace in the midst of such global turmoil.
It is good to trust Jesus Christ and calling on His name "Oh Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus you have loved me so much."

He will keep in perfect peace the one who trusts in Him. He walked across the waves of the stormy waters. You want Christ to know and fill the depths of your mind.