Three wise former gays

Originally posted by sonhouse

So I guess you all think this proves gayness is a choice. Good luck on that one.

And I presume this also means you all think you can pray away the gay.

First off I am very happy for the people in the video.

I was also born with some tendencies that I could argue are not a matter of choice with me.

We could each go down the road of believing that the impulses we seemed to have had from being born, are not choices.

Why can't the adulterer argue that yearning after his neighbor's wife was not choice to him? He was born that way.

Why can't the whore hopper claim that he was born with a lust for multiple casual sex partners ?

These people in these videos did not overcome their strong urges by themselves. The grace of Christ empowered them once they confessed that they were trapped in sinful behavior.

Essentially, the came to the point of agreeing with God. They saw the need and the hopeless of there struggling against those urges. They decided to "let go and let God". And it is the exact same thing in any area of sinning.

But first they had to come to a point of agreeing with God and realizing the need for salvation. This was not self improvement or self reform. Their healing involved mostly choosing Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]So I guess you all think this proves gayness is a choice. Good luck on that one.

And I presume this also means you all think you can pray away the gay.

First off I am very happy for the people in the video.

I was also born with some tendencies that I could argue are not a matter of choice with me.

We could each go do ...[text shortened]... is was not self improvement or self reform. Their healing involved mostly choosing Jesus Christ.[/b]

Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I don't know where you're getting this. That is not what I am saying at all.

I watched the first video. I see the guy was mixed up in some things that were indeed harmful, like drug abuse. I think he did the right thing by withdrawing from that scene.

But the existence of that scene has little relevance to the homosexuals outside of it. Nor does it show that homosexuality is wrong. There are similar damaging environments involving straight people, yet no one tells them their attraction to women is the source of the problem. They would probably tell them that they need to express their attraction in a better way.

No one is saying there are no similar damaging environments involving straight people.

I think the drugs were related to the depression he suffered. And the homosexual lifestyle exacerbated the depression.

I think his human conscience self condemned him. And people do imbed substances to relieve themselves from depression and self condemnation.

Christ takes care of real guilt, self guilt, artificial guilt too. And Christ empowers to overcome that cause of the condemnation.

Some guilt is from an over sensative conscience. And that can lead to mental illness. Jesus, the Friend of Sinners, knows the healing art. And He knows where you blamed yourself when perhaps you should not. And He knows where you excuse yourself when actually you should not.

He is not called "The Great Physician" for nothing. Jesus can get on the inside and do a thoroughly inside work of healing and liberation.

Some fear of coming to Jesus Christ stems around a person's FEAR that she or he will not be able to change. But God knew that better than you or I did. He looks for us to agree with Him first about our sins.

He knows that we need a Savior. And He knew that we felt driven as if we had no choice. But we can choose Christ rather than the self. And in choosing Jesus Christ empowering salvation comes called "grace".

We can learn to walk in that grace and be empowered to live Christ out.

Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

I certainly feel that some gays feel as if they have no choice.

The problem is that the same "no choice" argument could be made by the peeping tom, the whore hopper, the adulterer, the heterosexual pornographic addict, the pedophile.

Why restrict it to sexual problems. The gambler, the bully, the wife beater, the gay basher for that matter, could all offer the rationale that they have no choice in the matter.

Would you excuse me if I said "But I have no choice but to want to beat up or kill homosexuals ! I was just born with this hatred for gay people. I have no choice in this bigotry" ?

Would you accept that excuse for gay bashing ?

Originally posted by sonship

Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

I certainly feel that some gays feel as if they have no choice.

The problem is that the same "no choice" argument could be made by the peeping tom, the whore hopper, the adulterer, the heterosexual pornographic addict, the pedophile. ...[text shortened]... people. I have no choice in this bigotry" ?

Would you accept that excuse for gay bashing ?

Do you accept that gay people do not choose to be attracted to people of the same sex just as you and me do not choose to be attracted to people of the opposite sex?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are asking me to reason with someone that believes in unicorns? yeah you are correct, probably not.

coward.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why do you use the word "haters", is it enough to disagree enough to be
labeled that?
Kelly

I keep hearing this lip service given to the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner", but in my experience very few people ever get that far as to actually practice what they say.

He's the one belittling people who say it's not a choice.

Originally posted by RJHinds
My youngest son is gay, so I hope you are not including me among the haters.

If you acknowledge the truth of what I'm saying, you're probably not a hater.

But people have been known to disown their own blood for lesser things.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why do you use the word "haters", is it enough to disagree enough to be
labeled that?
Kelly

Actually, now that you have me thinking about it, I probably should have used the singular, and not the plural, since it's basically one person.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It is you who need reproaching, for your pathological misunderstanding of the gay lifestyle. You simply judge those folks as if you are superior spiritually. It has been amply proven you have no leave on the concept of spirituality.

A real god would judge you in just the same light as you judge those gay folk.

You seem to pathologically forget your go ...[text shortened]... be condemned come judgement day.

Remember that line that goes 'Judge not lest ye be judged'.

Let's not start in with this "real god" BS, okay? Like you have some special dispensation that makes you more keenly aware of what a "real god" would do. You don't even believe in the real God we already have. That alone proves you have no clue about a "real god".

That's where my differences with you lie, though. I don't mind you calling out pinheads.

Originally posted by Proper Knob

[quote] Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

I think what is normal is that we choose to be what our physiology indicates we are - male or female.

We agree with the "plumbing". We accept the anatomy of what kind of sexual activity our bodies were designed for. I think this choice is to go along with the physical reality first over the "feelings."

Since I have been a child I have many, many feelings. Just because I had those feelings does not mean that it was always right to go along with them.

We need Christ equally whether we are heterosexual or homosexual.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that the human male anus in another 10 million years will evolve into a reproductive organ ?

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] [b]Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

I think what is normal is that we choose to be what our physiology indicates we are - male or female.

We agree with the "plumbing". We accept the anatomy of what kind of sexual activity our bodies were designed for. I think this ch ...[text shortened]... ink that the human male anus in another 10 million years will evolve into a reproductive organ ?[/b]

So is that a yes or no?

Answer to your question, I have no idea.

Originally posted by Proper Knob

Do you accept that gay people do not choose to be attracted to people of the same sex just as you and me do not choose to be attracted to people of the opposite sex?

I think that with many of us, there is a stage of puberty when we are somewhat attracted to members of the same sex.

I think there may be some arrested psychological development involved in becoming a adult homosexual. But I could be wrong. Homosexuality was once listed as a mental disorder.

It is conceivable that a behavioral phenomenon become so prevalent that it tends to cause a redefinition of its nature.

This can run in either a negative direction or a positive direction.

My reason for starting this thread was to show some former homosexuals who made the wise choice to seek Jesus Christ to come into their lives.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So is that a yes or no?

Answer to your question, I have no idea.

Do you accept that gay people don't choose to be gay, as much as you don't choose to be heterosexual?

No, for the most part.

I think the choice is what you do with your organs. God made you either male or female. So we have to choose what matches the right sexual equipment we have.

For some people, for some reason, it is very difficult for them to decide to go along with their physiology. And a climate of educated expertise in the form of media hype and entertainment has made it a widespread dilemma.

Basically, people can think "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" in very basic matters of their physical makeup.

Did that answer your question ?

Originally posted by sonship

[b]Do you accept that gay people do not choose to be attracted to people of the same sex just as you and me do not choose to be attracted to people of the opposite sex?

I think that with many of us, there is a stage of puberty when we are somewhat attracted to members of the same sex.

I think there may be some arrested psych ...[text shortened]... some former homosexuals who made the wise choice to seek Jesus Christ to come into their lives.[/b]

It's funny, really: how personal
how intensely private and
soul-exposing
our sexuality is
how we are what we feel
how we don't want to get
caught
feeling
something we ought not
something not ought.

It's not like a favorite color
which we can change, can pretend
we never liked.
It's not like a band we used to dig
back in the 80's:
Haircut100 was truly cutting edge...

Somehow our sexuality is
a grave marker
an epithet
an etched-in-stone-for-all-eventual-passersby
to cluck their tongues against

To measure themselves against