True Spiritual stories...

Yeah. If I have infallible knowledge of and power over future events, and I know that if I have a son he'll become a mass murderer but I have him anyway and allow him to hurt innocent people, then yes, I'd say I'm very much to blame.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The universe is simply playing out by following the laws set in place
to govern it. Wearing down,decay, chemical reactions and so on
are part of the universal picture we find outselves in you would have
God change them?
Kelly

But this story does ask us to believe that divine forces intervened upon the actions of individual people, causing them to be late to the church and thus saving their lives. If free will is one of the rules set in place, isn't it much more serious for god to have changed that rule by causing the people to make choices they would not have otherwise made? Wouldn't it be a much less serious intervention to simply prevent the explosion in the first place?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are these things not planned for by God? Is he unable to prevent them or does he choose not to (to our detriment)? If they are essentially uncaused doesn't that destroy the First Cause argument?

Why, again He lets things work themselves out here, we choose to do
good or bad things, good or bad things happen. The universe is
winding down I'm sure everyone on both sides of the debate of
creation and evolution acknowledge that, and we are here in the
middle of it. We have our will to act as we desire, we have the laws of
the universe in place doing their things upon all parts of the universe.
What God is doing and why I don't know, if you want to know God's
reasons behind what He does I cannot help you, His ways are not
mine.
Kelly

Originally posted by darthmix
But this story does ask us to believe that divine forces intervened upon the actions of individual people, causing them to be late to the church and thus saving their lives. If free will is one of the rules set in place, isn't it much more serious for god to have changed that rule by causing the people to make choices they would not have otherwise made? Wou ...[text shortened]... n't it be a much less serious intervention to simply prevent the explosion in the first place?

Yes, that was what I got out of that story and as I pointed out it isn't
the only time things like that have occured. God has not promised to
anyone that bad things would not occur, they do to all, but at the
same time He is active in our lives. Why He allows some things to
happen and stops others I don't know.
Kelly

Originally posted by darthmix
Wouldn't it be a much less serious intervention to simply prevent the explosion in the first place?

I think you just want to screw Paul Harvey out of a good story and God out of the attention he so desperately needs.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The universe is winding down I'm sure everyone on both sides of the debate of creation and evolution acknowledge that

Uh... not really? There are a number of scientific theories about entropy in closed systems and the heat death of the universe, but those events are so far in the cosmic future that they have basically no impact on our day-to-day lives, and anyway the issues are by no means settled among scientists. There are still plenty of scientific theories (and, for that matter, religious positions) which allow for a universe that's on an endless cycle of incarnations, without beginning or end.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, that was what I got out of that story and as I pointed out it isn't
the only time things like that have occured. God has not promised to
anyone that bad things would not occur, they do to all, but at the
same time He is active in our lives. Why He allows some things to
happen and stops others I don't know.
Kelly

And since you don't know, since you accept that "stuff just happens" why do you attribute any of it to God? Think about it: you've decided that when good things happen, or bad things appear to have been prevented, that draws attention and credit to God. But when disaster strikes, or when good people suffer apparently needlessly, you claim it doesn't raise serious questions about God or his intentions. You've set the rules so that God looks good to you no matter what happens in the actual universe.

I could look at the same set of circumtances and decide that all the bad stuff is caused by an ancient, evil demon-god named Cthulhu, and that sometimes when good stuff happens we're just lucky. Both positions are equally silly.

Originally posted by darthmix
Uh... not really? There are a number of scientific theories about entropy in closed systems and the heat death of the universe, but those events are so far in the cosmic future that they have basically no impact on our day-to-day lives, and anyway the issues are by no means settled among scientists. There are still plenty of scientific theories (and, for th ...[text shortened]... hich allow for a universe that's on an endless cycle of incarnations, without beginning or end.

There are plenty of beliefs to go around on the state of things and
where we are going, and how it all began. My point is that God has
setup the universe and does not stop the process except when He
desires too, the other point about that story and the other I told is
that those people are all going to die unless Christ comes back first
and calls them. Nothing has changed for them, they are fated to die
as everyone else is, for there is a time appointed for all of us to die
and after that the judgment.
Kelly

Originally posted by darthmix
Yeah. If I have infallible knowledge of and power over future events, and I know that if I have a son he'll become a mass murderer but I have him anyway and allow him to hurt innocent people, then yes, I'd say I'm very much to blame.

Alright, poor example,, then let's put it this way......Do you think God should have made this world perfect without crime, evil, etc. the first time?
Then there would be no need for a Saviour, correct?

Originally posted by darthmix
And since you don't know, since you accept that "stuff just happens" why do you attribute any of it to God? Think about it: you've decided that when good things happen, or bad things appear to have been prevented, that draws attention and credit to God. But when disaster strikes, or when good people suffer apparently needlessly, you claim it doesn't raise s ...[text shortened]... hat sometimes when good stuff happens we're just lucky. Both positions are equally silly.

It is what it is, I believe you can see the hand of will upon the
universe, not just the will of God but the will of man or even animals
or insects and so on in some cases. Acknowledging that does mean
that I think somethings don't 'just happen' something/one had to act
upon what we see to get something to occur the way it did, other times
the universe is just behaving the way it does and things happen,
because that is how it is all put together.
Kelly

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Alright, poor example,, then let's put it this way......Do you think God should have made this world perfect without crime, evil, etc. the first time?
Then there would be no need for a Saviour, correct?

Correct. If God is truly benevolent, and does not wish to bring forth suffering upon his creation, then he'd presumably limit or do away with the suffering in the world, since that's within his power.

The objection - "but then we wouldn't need a savior!" is a poor one, since an evil world with a savior turns out to be a much worse option. Since God knows beforehand that most people will not accept his savior, by decreeing that we require one he's basically agreeing to consign most of us to eternal suffering in hell. If free will only gains us the ability to rebel against God, and thus damn ourselves, then we're much better off not having it at all. So instead of, say, NOT creating a universe, or creating one in which everyone's happy, he's created one in which most people will spend most of their spiritual existence burning in hell. It's the worst option, not the best one.

Originally posted by darthmix
Correct. If God is truly benevolent, and does not wish to bring forth suffering upon his creation, then he'd presumably limit or do away with the suffering in the world, since that's within his power.

The objection - "but then we wouldn't need a savior!" is a poor one, since an evil world with a savior turns out to be a much worse option. Since God knows ...[text shortened]... of their spiritual existence burning in hell. It's the worst option, not the best one.

Heh, excellent points.

Prepare for "Seceret Decoder Ring Defense" and an appeal to the "Mysteries of God".

Still, if your goal is to become public athiest enemy number one, this is a fine first salvo.

Cheers.

Well, I do try.

Originally posted by darthmix
Correct. If God is truly benevolent, and does not wish to bring forth suffering upon his creation, then he'd presumably limit or do away with the suffering in the world, since that's within his power.

The objection - "but then we wouldn't need a savior!" is a poor one, since an evil world with a savior turns out to be a much worse option. Since God knows ...[text shortened]... of their spiritual existence burning in hell. It's the worst option, not the best one.

If I may ask, in such a world, what would be it's purpose? I mean why would God make such a world? For what? What would He get out of it? I'm assuming, a world of unbelievers, who go about their business doing whatsoever they please.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
If I may ask, in such a world, what would be it's purpose? I mean why would God make such a world? For what? What would He get out of it? I'm assuming, a world of unbelievers, who go about their business doing whatsoever they please.

Right. You worship a God who permitted all of the suffering on earth, past, present and future, so his own selfish needs could be satisfied. Pitiful.