@secondson said
Can you prove that there's no such thing as "immutable truth"?

In terms of supernatural causality, spirituality, morality and such things?

Why would I have to prove a negative in this way? This is a gimmick.

What "immutable truths" are you claiming you "know"?

If you're just going to label your religious or spiritual beliefs "immutable truths" that doesn't count; that's just you being subjective.

@fmf said
I know you believe that. So what? It doesn't alter the credibility or objectivity of what you believe about spiritual and moral matters [that you happen to believe are "true"] by you attaching labels to them like "immutable".

One more thing, do you KNOW there's nothing that can be labeled immutable?

@secondson said
I'm only simply trying to have an objective discussion about the nature and attributes of what is labeled "truth".

And in the realm of religion, spirituality and morality, all you are doing is affixing self-aggrandizing labels to your personal beliefs and/or signalling your certainty and your sincerity with a string of adjectives that you think confer some great significance or emphasis upon what are, after all, merely your personal opinions.

@fmf said
What "immutable truths" are you claiming you "know"?

That's not what this discussion is about. You already know the answer to that question.

We're discussing whether or not there is such a thing as immutable anything.

At least that's what I'm trying to do.

@secondson said
One more thing, do you KNOW there's nothing that can be labeled immutable?

When it comes to spiritual matters, I believe everything you and I say is subjective, so for me to use the word "know" in such a way - as in, I know that what I believe is an immutable truth - would not work, obviously. I am pretty certain about the things I believe but no matter how certain I am, I do not lose track of the fact that this is all in the realm of subjectivity.

@secondson said
We're discussing whether or not there is such a thing as immutable anything.

I am discussing whether anything is achieved by attaching the label "immutable truth" to personal opinions about supernatural, spiritual and moral matters.

@fmf said
And in the realm of religion, spirituality and morality, all you are doing is affixing self-aggrandizing labels to your personal beliefs and/or signalling your certainty and your sincerity with a string of adjectives that you think confer some great significance or emphasis upon what are, after all, merely your personal opinions.

And with that you are effectively derailing an objective discussion about what may or may not be immutable, or whether or not there is such a thing.

Setting aside any discussion relative to the supernatural with regards to the immutable, why not, by reason and logic, ferret out whether there be any such thing as objective and immutable truth?

Clearly there is, and there are many examples.

@fmf said
I am discussing whether anything is achieved by attaching the label "immutable truth" to personal opinions about supernatural, spiritual and moral matters.

I'm not. I'm discussing whether or not there are immutable truths.

At the start of this thread I did make reference to "God's truth", but the discussion has evolved.

@secondson said
And with that you are effectively derailing an objective discussion about what may or may not be immutable, or whether or not there is such a thing.

I have no reason to believe that any of the stuff you claim about God or Jesus or "sin" or "everlasting life" or other tenets of your religion are "immutable truths" or that they can be compared to gravity. But I understand why it's important to you to believe they are "immutable truths" and to assert that they are.

@secondson said
Setting aside any discussion relative to the supernatural with regards to the immutable, why not, by reason and logic, ferret out whether there be any such thing as objective and immutable truth?

No, I am not setting it aside. If I wanted to discuss things like gravity, I'd be on the Science Forum.

@secondson said
At the start of this thread I did make reference to "God's truth", but the discussion has evolved.

I believe every personal opinion you have about "God's truth" is a product of your conjecture, aspiration and subjectivity.

@kellyjay said
I would agree, if we are talking opinions that may vary, but truth no.

Are your “opinions” about the literal multi-headed beasts being ridden by literal whores wearing cloaks dipped in the literal blood of Christians - open to scrutiny as opinions, or are they “absolute truth”?

@dj2becker said
Truth that is defined as being absolute, possesses the following qualities.

• Truth is discovered not invented
• Truth is transcultural: it can be conveyed across different cultures.
• Truth is unchanging: it can be conveyed across time.
• Beliefs cannot change a truth statement no matter how sincere one may be
• Truth is unaffected by the attitude of the one profess ...[text shortened]... ee or disagree with and why?


https://evidenceandanswers.org/article/truth-absolute-or-relative/

"Truth that is defined as being absolute, possesses the following qualities."
...
"• All Truths are absolute"

Isn't this a circular definition?

@bigdoggproblem said
"Truth that is defined as being absolute, possesses the following qualities."
...
"• All Truths are absolute"

Isn't this a circular definition?

Will the law of non-contradiction always apply to the truth?
I think it will, as it would to anything absolute.
That is why I put the smiley face on saying the truth statement; there is no such thing as truth, which becomes a self-contractionary statement on its face.

Since even making a truth statement about truth not being real is a contradiction, we should be able to see that real truths that have nothing to do with our opinions, and our opinions do not alter real truths only opinions.