Using your predestination

Originally posted by josephw
It means what it says. "They", the objects of his wrath, God bore their rebellion patiently, but they will be destroyed.

It makes no sense to use that verse to say God will save those that are "prepared for destruction" against their will. If a man chooses to reject Christ God won't force them to be saved against their will. That idea cannot be supported by scripture.

Then you probably need to read up on "predestination" a bit more. It's a pretty straightforward concept. On the other hand you can follow sonship down one of his rabbit holes of strange belief.

Originally posted by josephw
"...that God's foreknowledge is tied in to this matter of predestination."

It is difficult to explain. Then there is also the matter of man's free will tied into they equation as well.

Lol. Exactly.

Originally posted by josephw
That explanation works for me.

I'm interested in your thoughts on limited atonement vs unlimited atonement.

What an excellent topic. I'd be very interested to hear sonship's respons to this.

I'm in and out of the forum, please help me not to miss it.

Originally posted by sonship
I would have to research what those phrases mean josephw.

Is the atonement for all, covering all sin, past, present and future?

Originally posted by josephw
From what I understand about limited vs unlimited atonement it seems that limited atonement means that only a select number of people receive salvation, but with unlimited atonement all are saved.

I think the words "limited" and "unlimited" are unnecessary additions to the idea of atonement. The "atonement", or "reconciliation", is "unlimited" in its appl ...[text shortened]... n how is it said of Judas by Jesus that "it had been good for that man if he had not been born"?

What do you believe, in plain simple terms please?

Originally posted by divegeester to josephw
sonship's and your version of god is monstrous torturing despot. Jesus will be in hell with his angels spectating the flesh melt carnage - you do believe this stuff don't do think these scriptures are literal don't you?

It will interesting to see if you are able to get josephw to state any unequivocal belief about the torture-for-eternity doctrine that sonship propagates.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe that Christ died a redemptive death for all whoever lived.
The term [b]Substitution I understand to mean this atonement is applied to those who believe. When we receive Him the Substitution of Christ in our place for eternal judgment is applied.

There are unknowns to me as to how Substitution will be applied in some situations which at lea ...[text shortened]... t I could imagine.

"Substitution", I don't think, is a word found in the Bible itself.[/b]

So you believe that the atonement by Christ, can be nullified by man's free will?

Originally posted by chaney3
It seems you are saying that Jesus died for our sins.....but with a 'catch'....you must believe that He did it.

For such a supreme sacrifice, could it be possible that ALL benefit? Regardless of belief?

It seems that God would not be so petty to demand we believe something that happened 2,000 years ago, or be damned to hell.

Excelent point.

Originally posted by josephw
Believing is a choice, an act of the will.

But just now you were agreeing with sonship and his "predestination" ideas. Now you are saying one can choose to believe.

How can someone who does not believe, choose to believe?

It's utter nonsense.

The only reason anyone believes is because of Christ, not through free will. The atonement was for everyone, the entire human race. Enjoying a spirit filled life now, is the "first fruits"

No one will be in hell being tortured by Jesus for eternity. Hell does not exist. Jesus will not be watching the horror show.

Originally posted by josephw

Josephw,

looked up this commentary by Matthew Henry because I've heard of this teaching about "commanding" God before. I question the interpretation you appear to be implying, but the context doesn't seem to support it.

So let's talk about that part. Let's check your conclusion out.

Verse 9 says, "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!" I think the word "command" in verse 11, based on the surrounding context, has as its meaning a petition rather than the idea that we can tell God what to do. We can make our request know to God, but to assume we have an authority over God that allows us to "command" God is over the top. God is sovereign and omniscient, and in no way does He need our input to accomplish His will.

Even Jesus, who most certainly knew more about God's will and purposes than anyone, didn't presume to do his own will, but did what was commanded of him by the Father.

I deeply respect your conclusion. Please notice that Jesus also taught a prayer that was a kind of COMMANDING prayer.

" And Jesus answered and said to them, truly I say to you, If you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, Be taken up and cast into the sea, it will happen.

AND ... all that you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive." ( Matt. 21:21,22)

Now this is a kind of commanding\ prayer. Is it not ?
There is no argument, I think, that this kind of commanding prayer is being taught by the Son of God to His disciples and therefore to His church.

Please consider the words at the end of His teaching:

"And all that you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive."

Now I know the concern you may have. And I would have it also. That is that Matthew 21:21,22 might be taken to mean some hyper Pentacostalism in which willy nilly Christians make all manner and all kinds of authoritative commands to physical objects, perhaps to prove to the world that they are super spiritual.

Well, rest your caution because the larger context is to ASK according to what is God's will.

" concerning THE WORK OF MY HANDS, ... command Me"

Oneness with God, oneness with the will of God, oneness with the heart of God and the plan of God, harmony with His thought and intention concerning "the work" that God wants to accomplish is the key to commanding prayer.

Do not say, "Such oneness will always be impossible." If we in doubt say that such a harmony between God and His people on earth will never be possible (even with a remnant) then we also say that the gates of Hades indeed have apparently prevailed against the church Christ said He builds.

Christian humility ? Yes, we should have humility.
But that humility as every other proper virtue is Christ Himself wrought and worked into our beings.

And as Christ made mighty commanding petition concerning the Father's will, Christ worked into a group of people on earth built up into Him must also arrive at this maturity.

Joseph? Did the prophet Daniel tell God to fulfill what He had promised to do in returning the captivity of Israel from Babylon ?

Was that not Daniel basing his petitions to God (mind you at the cost of his life) concerning Jeremiah's prophecy that after 70 years the Jews would return from captivity?

Originally posted by FMF
It will interesting to see if you are able to get josephw to state any unequivocal belief about the torture-for-eternity doctrine that sonship propagates.

I'm sure I won't be able to, but the question still needs to be asked.

Originally posted by sonship
Josephw,

looked up this commentary by Matthew Henry because I've heard of this teaching about "commanding" God before. I question the interpretation you appear to be implying, but the context doesn't seem to support it.

So let's talk about that part. Let's check your conclusion out.

[quote] Verse 9 says, "Woe unto him that stri ...[text shortened]... rist worked into a group of people on earth built up into Him must also arrive at this maturity.

I deeply respect your conclusions as well sonship. I see your perspective and point of view. They're not entirely without merit. I think we see the matter from only slightly different angles. Nothing worth arguing over.

I'll say this though. Not once has God ever failed to answer my petitions and prayers. In fact God did for me better than I would have imagined. Our God is a good God. Our God is a giver of good things, but all too often we fail to ask in faith believing that God does all for our good. After all we're already blessed with all spiritual blessings.

🙂

Originally posted by josephw
I'll say this though. Not once has God ever failed to answer my petitions and prayers.

Wow, that's quite a record.
Do you mind if I give you a prayer request?