Originally posted by divegeester to josephwIt will interesting to see if you are able to get josephw to state any unequivocal belief about the torture-for-eternity doctrine that sonship propagates.
sonship's and your version of god is monstrous torturing despot. Jesus will be in hell with his angels spectating the flesh melt carnage - you do believe this stuff don't do think these scriptures are literal don't you?
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Originally posted by josephwJosephw,
looked up this commentary by Matthew Henry because I've heard of this teaching about "commanding" God before. I question the interpretation you appear to be implying, but the context doesn't seem to support it.
So let's talk about that part. Let's check your conclusion out.
Verse 9 says, "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!" I think the word "command" in verse 11, based on the surrounding context, has as its meaning a petition rather than the idea that we can tell God what to do. We can make our request know to God, but to assume we have an authority over God that allows us to "command" God is over the top. God is sovereign and omniscient, and in no way does He need our input to accomplish His will.
Even Jesus, who most certainly knew more about God's will and purposes than anyone, didn't presume to do his own will, but did what was commanded of him by the Father.
I deeply respect your conclusion. Please notice that Jesus also taught a prayer that was a kind of COMMANDING prayer.
" And Jesus answered and said to them, truly I say to you, If you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, Be taken up and cast into the sea, it will happen.
AND ... all that you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive." ( Matt. 21:21,22)
Now this is a kind of commanding\ prayer. Is it not ?
There is no argument, I think, that this kind of commanding prayer is being taught by the Son of God to His disciples and therefore to His church.
Please consider the words at the end of His teaching:
"And all that you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive."
Now I know the concern you may have. And I would have it also. That is that Matthew 21:21,22 might be taken to mean some hyper Pentacostalism in which willy nilly Christians make all manner and all kinds of authoritative commands to physical objects, perhaps to prove to the world that they are super spiritual.
Well, rest your caution because the larger context is to ASK according to what is God's will.
" concerning THE WORK OF MY HANDS, ... command Me"
Oneness with God, oneness with the will of God, oneness with the heart of God and the plan of God, harmony with His thought and intention concerning "the work" that God wants to accomplish is the key to commanding prayer.
Do not say, "Such oneness will always be impossible." If we in doubt say that such a harmony between God and His people on earth will never be possible (even with a remnant) then we also say that the gates of Hades indeed have apparently prevailed against the church Christ said He builds.
Christian humility ? Yes, we should have humility.
But that humility as every other proper virtue is Christ Himself wrought and worked into our beings.
And as Christ made mighty commanding petition concerning the Father's will, Christ worked into a group of people on earth built up into Him must also arrive at this maturity.
Joseph? Did the prophet Daniel tell God to fulfill what He had promised to do in returning the captivity of Israel from Babylon ?
Was that not Daniel basing his petitions to God (mind you at the cost of his life) concerning Jeremiah's prophecy that after 70 years the Jews would return from captivity?
Originally posted by sonshipI deeply respect your conclusions as well sonship. I see your perspective and point of view. They're not entirely without merit. I think we see the matter from only slightly different angles. Nothing worth arguing over.
Josephw,looked up this commentary by Matthew Henry because I've heard of this teaching about "commanding" God before. I question the interpretation you appear to be implying, but the context doesn't seem to support it.
So let's talk about that part. Let's check your conclusion out.
[quote] Verse 9 says, "Woe unto him that stri ...[text shortened]... rist worked into a group of people on earth built up into Him must also arrive at this maturity.
I'll say this though. Not once has God ever failed to answer my petitions and prayers. In fact God did for me better than I would have imagined. Our God is a good God. Our God is a giver of good things, but all too often we fail to ask in faith believing that God does all for our good. After all we're already blessed with all spiritual blessings.
🙂