Using your predestination

Originally posted by divegeester
But just now you were agreeing with sonship and his "predestination" ideas. Now you are saying one can choose to believe.

How can someone who does not believe, choose to believe?

It's utter nonsense.

"How can someone who does not believe, choose to believe?"

You echo FMF. You've been mentored well.

Think for yourself for a change. Think it through. The question is fallacious. It assumes that one didn't choose to not believe, and subsequently is void of the faculty of choosing.

You chose to believe that you cannot choose to believe because you don't believe. It's idiotic, irrational and illogical to believe one cannot choose to believe when one doesn't believe. It's a false dichotomy.

It presumes one is a dolt incapable of rational thought, an automaton subject to every external input without the capacity of reasoning.

Go ahead and think you have no free will. You have no choice after all.

Originally posted by divegeester
Wow, that's quite a record.
Do you mind if I give you a prayer request?

Too late. I'm way ahead of you.

2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

😉

Originally posted by josephw to divegeester
[b]"How can someone who does not believe, choose to believe?"

You echo FMF. You've been mentored well.

Think for yourself for a change. Think it through. The question is fallacious. It assumes that one didn't choose to not believe, and subsequently is void of the faculty of choosing.

You chose to believe that you cannot c ...[text shortened]... apacity of reasoning.

Go ahead and think you have no free will. You have no choice after all.[/b]

This is pretentious gibberish. And, bizarrely, it is addressed to one of your fellow Christians who DOES believe and who cannot somehow simply "choose" not to (which is the flipside of someone not being able to simply choose to believe something they find unbelievable).

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
You are basing this 'truth' on what is written in the Bible. If so, is the entire Bible true or only the few words that you choose to believe?

If you're interested in truth, then set aside all your preconceived ideas and approach the words of Jesus while He walked the Earth with an open mind and allow His words to speak for themselves.

John 6:63 "...the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"How can someone who does not believe, choose to believe?"

You echo FMF. You've been mentored well.

Think for yourself for a change. Think it through. The question is fallacious. It assumes that one didn't choose to not believe, and subsequently is void of the faculty of choosing.

You chose to believe that you cannot choose to believ ...[text shortened]... apacity of reasoning.

Go ahead and think you have no free will. You have no choice after all.[/b]

Do you believe in a flying hippopotamus? No? Could you choose to believe in a flying hippopotamus?!

Really think about that Joe. Without sufficient proof that a flying hippopotamus exists, could you choose to believe in its existence, and I mean truly believe and not just give it lip service?

God to me is a flying hippopotamus. Not believing in Him isn't a choice, it's a lack of belief.

Originally posted by divegeester
Wow, that's quite a record.
Do you mind if I give you a prayer request?

Rather than it being quite a record, it shows the selfish and shallow nature of his prayers. Obviously he has never prayed for peace in the world, or for the end of poverty and suffering, or for the return of Christ .... and other stuff along those lines.

Originally posted by josephw

I deeply respect your conclusions as well sonship. I see your perspective and point of view. They're not entirely without merit. I think we see the matter from only slightly different angles. Nothing worth arguing over.

Yes, we're just examining together.
I get much from Matthew Henry's comments

I'll say this though. Not once has God ever failed to answer my petitions and prayers.

That's a powerful testimony.
You must be praying according to His will much.

In fact God did for me better than I would have imagined.

I have experienced that.

I may quote a book latter "The Prayer Ministry of the Church" by Watchman Nee.

Our God is a good God. Our God is a giver of good things, but all too often we fail to ask in faith believing that God does all for our good. After all we're already blessed with all spiritual blessings.

From "The Prayer Ministry of the Church", a very helpful book on corporate prayer:

Isaiah 45:11 has a most peculiar word, “Thus says Jehovah, /The Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him,/Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,/And concerning the work of My hands, command Me.” Brothers and sisters, is not this word most peculiar? Concerning the sons and the work of His hand, God says that we can command Him. We would almost be afraid to use the word “command.” How can man command God? All those who know God realize that man cannot be haughty before Him. But God Himself says, “Concerning My sons,/And concerning the work of My hands, command Me.” This is the earth controlling heaven. It does not mean that we force God to do what He does not want to do. Rather, it means that we can command God to do what He wants to do. This is our position. After we know God’s will, we can say to Him, “God, we want You to do this. We are determined that You should do this. God, You must do this.” We can utter such strong and powerful prayers before God. We have to ask God to open our eyes to see the kind of work He is doing in this age. In this age all His work is based on this position. Heaven may want to accomplish something, but heaven will not do it alone; heaven waits for the earth to do it first, and then heaven does it. Although the earth stands in the second place, at the same time, it also stands in the first place. The earth must move before heaven will move. God wants the earth to move heaven.

And a few paragraphs before this:

THE EARTH CONTROLS HEAVEN

In verse 18 the Lord says, “Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” What is special about this verse? The special thing is that there must be a move on earth before there is a move in heaven. It is not heaven that binds first but the earth that binds first. It is not heaven that looses first but the earth that looses first. After the earth binds, heaven binds; after the earth looses, heaven looses. The move in heaven is controlled by the move on earth. Everything contrary to God has to be bound, and everything in harmony with God has to be released. Everything, whether it is something to be bound or loosed, should have its binding or its loosing originate from the earth. The move on the earth precedes the move in heaven. The earth controls heaven.

We can see how the earth controls heaven from a few cases in the Old Testament. When Moses was on the mountain, the Israelites won every time he raised his hands, and the Amalekites won every time he lowered his hands (Exo. 17:9-11). Who decided the victory at the bottom of the mountain? Did God decide or did Moses decide? Brothers and sisters, we have to see God’s principle of work and the key to His move. God cannot do what He wants to do unless man wants it. We cannot make God do what He does not want to do, yet we can stop God from doing what He wants to do. The victory was decided by God in heaven, but the victory was decided by Moses before men. Truly, God in heaven wanted the Israelites to win, but if Moses had not raised his hands on earth, the Israelites would have lost. When he raised his hands, the Israelites won. The earth controls heaven.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=20 [My bolding]

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you're interested in truth, then set aside all your preconceived ideas and approach the words of Jesus while He walked the Earth with an open mind and allow His words to speak for themselves.

John 6:63 "...the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

Either the Bible is divinely inspired or it is not. Were the authors of the Bible only divinely inspired when they wrote down the exact words of Christ and not the rest of the time?

Originally posted by sonship

I deeply respect your conclusions as well sonship. I see your perspective and point of view. They're not entirely without merit. I think we see the matter from only slightly different angles. Nothing worth arguing over.

Yes, we're just examining together.
I get much from Matthew Henry's comments

I'll say this though. Not once ...[text shortened]... earth controls heaven.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=20 [My bolding]

I've heard it said that this earthly realm is a reflection of the spiritual. It seems that the conflict that began with the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels is being played out here on earth within the realm of men. Earth is the battleground.

If that is true, then there is merit in the idea that as we bind on earth so it is bound in heaven according to the will and purposes of God.

I think that as long as man purposes, according to and in alignment with, the revelation of God's Word, then there is something to be said for the idea that man can "command", or petition, God to sovereignly act.

The idea carries with it the assumption that man is empowered by God to act as a co-conspirator in the battle to reclaim what Satan has usurped.

The implications are profound.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Rather than it being quite a record, it shows the selfish and shallow nature of his prayers. Obviously he has never prayed for peace in the world, or for the end of poverty and suffering, or for the return of Christ .... and other stuff along those lines.

You are a presumptuous little man aren't you. I didn't know you were clairvoyant too.

Originally posted by josephw
I've heard it said that this earthly realm is a reflection of the spiritual. It seems that the conflict that began with the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels is being played out here on earth within the realm of men. Earth is the battleground.

If that is true, then there is merit in the idea that as we bind on earth so it is bound in heaven according to ...[text shortened]... -conspirator in the battle to reclaim what Satan has usurped.

The implications are profound.

No comment except.
Amen.

And we believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ. Praise the Lord. Say a little more about that because its related to this subject.

We can pray according to those blessings petitioning that God bring us into those riches experiencially more. He did say we have not merely because we ask not.

This is a bit paradoxical. I think He means that we do not apply faith. We do need more to mix the word with faith. The blessings of the New Covenant are applied through faith. I think we are saying the same thing. I just like to jar people into realizations by sometimes writing kind of sensational sounding thread titles.

Originally posted by sonship
No comment except.
[b]Amen.

And we believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ. Praise the Lord. Say a little more about that because its related to this subject.

We can pray according to those blessings petitioning that God bring us into those riches experiencially more. He did say we have not merely be ...[text shortened]... to jar people into realizations by sometimes writing kind of sensational sounding thread titles.[/b]

Well, it seems you've spent more time contemplating this concept. I do enjoy reading your posts, though at times some of your phrasing throws me off. I think my doctrinal perspectives are slightly different from yours in some particular areas, but in the main I think we're on the same page.

Some of your interpretations, if that's the appropriate word, pose a bit of a conundrum for me, but they are refreshingly challenging, and I do appreciate that. God be with you.

Originally posted by divegeester
Is the atonement for all, covering all sin, past, present and future?

Yes. Why not ?

Do you think you encourage fellowship by telling that I am writing gibberish and causing people to go down a rabbit hole ? That's not right.

My reply here will have to be tailored to be related to the OP. Concerning future sins the Christian may commit, these too are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. But God requires that we confess.

Speaking to Christian brothers and sisters John writes:

"If we confess our sins, He is faitfhul and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (John 1:9)

Don't worry about not confessing. Oh, if you are a believer in Christ sooner or latter you WILL confess your sins. If you confess your sins in this church age it will have one flavor.

If we procrastinate on a particular sin and refuse to confess in this lifetime, be assured it will be confessed before the judgement seat of Christ.

When we confess our sins we are really also putting faith in what God has predestined for us as Christians. God has predestined believers to be presented before God without spot or blemish or any such thing. And He is able to present us thoroughly within and without "faultless" .

" That He might sanctify her [the church] , cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, that He might present the church to Himself glorious, NOT HAVING SPOT OR WRINKLE or ANY SUCH THINGS,

but that she would be holy and without blemish. " (Eph. 5:26,27)

We can pray using our predestination as members of His Body and Bride the church -

"Lord Jesus, I am to be presented in Your Bride WITHOUT blemish, WITHOUT spot, cleansed, washed in the blood and washed in the word of God. Lord Jesus, DO fulfill Your will that I be cleansed from every defiling thing.

Lord even from my failures of today, cleanse me according to Your promise to be able to present me faultless before the presence of Your glory in exceeding joy. For You, O Lord, have promised ....

[b] " But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation,

To the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and unto all eternity. Amen." (Jude 24,25)

We can pray unto our final destiny. This is also using our predestination as Christians.

Originally posted by josephw
Well, it seems you've spent more time contemplating this concept. I do enjoy reading your posts, though at times some of your phrasing throws me off. I think my doctrinal perspectives are slightly different from yours in some particular areas, but in the main I think we're on the same page.

Some of your interpretations, if that's the appropriate word, pos ...[text shortened]... undrum for me, but they are refreshingly challenging, and I do appreciate that. God be with you.

I may use an utterance which is new and novel sounding. I'll try to make these points clear enough.

Daniel was carried away into Babylon with the other Hebrews. Daniel studied the book of Jeremiah to ascertain how long the Babylonian captivity would be a punishment to Israel. The answer was 70 years.

Now he could have just been absolutely passive -

"Well, the prophecy says that we will be in captivity 70 years. Of course God will do what He needs to do after 70 years. There is little need for us to do anything but just WAIT and maybe curiously look at the signs of the times. "

No, that is not the attitude of this patriarch of faith. He knew God was going to operate. So Daniel cooperated with God by praying regularly FOR God to fulfill what He had promised!

Right here:

" In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, a Median descendant who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans, In the first year of his reign

I Daniel understood by means of the Scriptures the number of uears, which came as the word of Jeremiah the prophet, for the completion of the desolation of Jerusalem, that is, seventy years.

So I set my face toward the Lord God to seek Him in prayer and supplications with fastings and sackcloth and ashes.

And I prayed to Jehovah my God and confessed and said, Ah Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and lovingkindness with those who love Him and keep His commandments,

We have sinned and have committed iniquity, and we have acted wickedly and rebelled ... etc. etc." (Daniel chapter 9)

What about today as we know Christ has promised to come again ?
In many cities there is growing a corporate praying Daniel confessing the sins of the church and petitioning for God to bring about the destiny He has marked out for His people.

Originally posted by josephw
You are a presumptuous little man aren't you. I didn't know you were clairvoyant too.

If a man says God answers all his prayers then clearly he prays only for petty stuff pertaining to self ... and nothing of substance.

If that is not obvious to you then thats your failing.