Was heaven empty before Christ?

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Purgatory? One has to ask the question, wouldn't this be like eternal life without the need to acquire material sustenance? Life without the need to acquire food and shelter would be a heaven of sorts would it not? I mean, lets face it, all of the evils that are done on Earth generally revolve around people taking things from other people. If there is no ...[text shortened]... ntly reduced, possibly even extinguished. I therefore have to ask, what's better about heaven?

If there is nothing to take then do we have nothing? How would we keep ourselves occupied?

I don't know.

Fabian, you called God an "evil bastard"

I still want to know on a scale of 1 to 10 in morality, 1 being the most evil and 10 being the most good:


Where do you place Jesus Christ and where do you place Fabian?

The Bible says that Jesus is God come to us in the form of a man. So if God is an "evil bastard" where are you in relation to His level of morality as manifested in Christ Jesus of the Bible ?


Second question:

When you look back on the years you have been alive is there absolutely nothing for which you might be thankful to this so called "evil bastard" God ?

Originally posted by eamon o
get out of here, thats so ridiculous its not even funny

I won't get out of here. How is it ridiculous?

Do you know the christians that I have met?

Most christians that I have met (at least the ones that are religious) have told me that if you don't believe in Jesus being the messiah then you don't go to heaven. There have been those in this community who have said the same thing.

Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah so if that is a condition on which entrance to heaven is based then Jews won't go to heaven.

I didn't say that's what ALL christians believe, however it's my understanding of christian faith that belief in Jesus being the son of god and/or the messiah is central to it. Please correct me if I am wrong, but saying it's ridiculous isn't a correction.

Originally posted by jaywill
How you can twist that normal attitude of human gratitude into more twisted excuses to deny God any thanks at all is your perverted reasoning.

I explained how I twist it with a demonstration and an argument and you chose to simply call it a strawman and avoid any questions. I notice you are still avoiding all questions.

I agree that it is the normal attitude of the slave to thank his master for every scrap of food passed down and every whipping spared. But I disagree that such 'normal' attitudes of human gratitude are always correct and justified.
I may be wrong to think that this particular situation does not warrant genuine thanks and to give you the chance to rectify my views I have asked some relevant questions. You have chosen to not answer them.
Do not therefore be surprised if I continue to not give thanks to your God. You are not exactly a good ambassador for him.

Originally posted by jaywill
The Bible says that Jesus is God come to us in the form of a man. So if God is an "evil bastard" where are you in relation to His level of morality as manifested in Christ Jesus of the Bible ?

Jesus Christ of the Bible upheld some of the most morally evil laws of the Old Testament. Even when he was given the perfect opportunity to denounce them he did not do so (stoning adulterers for example) but instead chose to pretend a better moral attitude without actually denouncing the rule. I on the other hand totally and unconditionally denounce the practice of stoning adulterers as immoral and reprehensible. I therefore rate myself morally higher than the Jesus of the Bible.

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I agree that it is the normal attitude of the slave ...

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No you don't "agree" because I said nothing about "slave".


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to thank his master for every scrap of food passed down and every whipping spared.
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So that God grants you a sound enough mind and eyes to reply to this message even using it to fight against God is a "scrap".

That He allows you one more day when some of your aquaintences have already died is just a "scrap".


Life, health, soundness of body and mind - all "scraps" to you.

More "scraps" to the "slave".

More boasting of how clever your ingratitude can be.


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But I disagree that such 'normal' attitudes of human gratitude are always correct and justified.

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And you can think of no instances where they wuold be correct and justified? Not is it costs you your atheism huh ?

Not if it remotely implies you're dependent on God for ANYTHING huh?

I mean after all you did cause yourself to exist by pure will of your ego, no thanks to any God.


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I may be wrong to think that this particular situation does not warrant genuine thanks and to give you the chance to rectify my views I have asked some relevant questions. You have chosen to not answer them.

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That's right. Maybe I won't answer them at all.

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Do not therefore be surprised if I continue to not give thanks to your God. You are not exactly a good ambassador for him.

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Do not therefore be surprised if while talking to someone else I stop and allow you to come in to his defense, assuming your arguments are his.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Jesus Christ of the Bible upheld some of the most morally evil laws of the Old Testament. Even when he was given the perfect opportunity to denounce them he did not do so (stoning adulterers for example) but instead chose to pretend a better moral attitude without actually denouncing the rule. I on the other hand totally and unconditionally denounce the p ...[text shortened]... s immoral and reprehensible. I therefore rate myself morally higher than the Jesus of the Bible.

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Jesus Christ of the Bible upheld some of the most morally evil laws of the Old Testament. Even when he was given the perfect opportunity to denounce them he did not do so (stoning adulterers for example)

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Nonsense. Congradulations on missing the entire point of the chapter.

They were convicted by their own consciences that none of them was in a position to judge the woman. Starting from the oldest who had the longest history in sin to the younger ones, they departed, convicted by their own hypocrisy.

Only God really has the right to kill her. And he being there in the Person of Jesus said "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."


IF I ever want to get the wrong meaning from the Bible than what is intended I will come to you.


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but instead chose to pretend a better moral attitude without actually denouncing the rule. I on the other hand totally and unconditionally denounce the practice of stoning adulterers as immoral and reprehensible. I therefore rate myself morally higher than the Jesus of the Bible.
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Jesus "pretended" huh ?

You heard it here folks. Twhitehead rates himself morally more perfect than Jesus Christ.

Give me the names of three or four people in your life and their emails. I'd like to check with them if you are of a higher morality than Jesus.

Sons, daughters, wife, teacher, anyone. Let's check and see if they agree with you.

Originally posted by jaywill
No you don't "agree" because I said nothing about "slave".

But you did say that God 'spared' us the suffering that others were receiving. I can only conclude from that that God has the ability to spare us from suffering but in some instances chooses not to. I am therefore at his mercy and thus a slave. I suspect too that he is the cause of the suffering, but rather than jump to that conclusion I asked you about it, you refused to answer.

That's right. Maybe I won't answer them at all.
I didn't expect you too. It would amount to an admission that your initial argument was ridiculous and make you wonder why you have spent such a large part of your life worshiping an evil dictator. Thinking never is a good idea for theists.

Originally posted by jaywill
Nonsense. Congradulations on missing the entire point of the chapter.
They were convicted by their own consciences that none of them was in a position to judge the woman. Starting from the oldest who had the longest history in sin to the younger ones, they departed, convicted by their own hypocrisy.
Only God really has the right to kill her. And he be ...[text shortened]... I ever want to get the wrong meaning from the Bible than what is intended I will come to you.

Come on. Take up the challenge. Show me where Jesus denounced the law. Show me where Jesus admitted that God should never have given the law to the Israelites in the first place. That is what you said isn't it? That the law should not have been in the old testament because "Only God really has the right to kill her."

Originally posted by twhitehead
But you did say that God 'spared' us the suffering that others were receiving. I can only conclude from that that God has the ability to spare us from suffering but in some instances chooses not to. I am therefore at his mercy and thus a slave. I suspect too that he is the cause of the suffering, but rather than jump to that conclusion I asked you about i e part of your life worshiping an evil dictator. Thinking never is a good idea for theists.

If you call that "thinking" you're right. Not a good idea.


If God allows some misfortune to come your way, it is your attitude that determines whether it will be for good or not in the long run.

He has been faithful to me that life has not been a paradise without any misfortune so that I can realize that there is something wrong in the world which requires His salvation.

Reasoning along with you I would have to count any sense of discomfort in my body as a bad thing. Actually pain alerts me that something is wrong.

You don't want to be alerted that anything is wrong. Neither are you thankful that you have not been SO overwhelmed with such misfortunes.

That God has regulated both a measure of well being and incentives for you to turn from your sins, has been lost on you.

Its typical, Every atheist always thinks he is very clever, being rather very blinded.

However, this all is a moot point for someone who thinks his level of righteousness exceeds that of Jesus Christ.

That must mean that for NOTHING in your life you need forgiveness. go tell the good news to all your family that you are more good than Jesus and require forgiveness by NO ONE for ANYTHING.

Let me know if they make a major world faith of the name Twhitehead.

Originally posted by jaywill
Fabian, you called God an "evil bastard"

I still want to know on a scale of 1 to 10 in morality, 1 being the most evil and 10 being the most good:


Where do you place Jesus Christ and where do you place Fabian?

The Bible says that Jesus is God come to us in the form of a man. So if God is an "evil bastard" where are you in relation to His ...[text shortened]... [b] nothing for which you might be thankful to this so called "evil bastard" God ?[/b]

Jeseus was a great philosopher, but if he was son of god, I'm not so sure about. The jews agrees with me.

God is the number one genocide murderer. All but 8 persons survived the flood. Not even Hitler came that far. His holy evilness is beyond any scale.

When the christians themself tell us that "Fear God", then he can't be that good, can he? (www.feargod.com) Why should I be thankful for that kind of evil bastard anyway?

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Jeseus was a great philosopher, but if he was son of god, I'm not so sure about. The jews agrees with me.

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Why would you say someone was a great philosopher if they told what they knew not to be true as truth?

Why would you say someone was a great philosopher is they were deluded to believe what was not true.

There is no room for you to call Jesus a great philosopher. He is either Son of God, or madman, or the world's foremost deceiver.


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God is the number one genocide murderer. All but 8 persons survived the flood. Not even Hitler came that far. His holy evilness is beyond any scale.

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That is interesting because Jesus said that in the last judgement some for whom God judged it will be more tolerable than for some hearers who received a greater mercy from God to have time consider and repent of thier sins.

" I say to you that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in that day than for that city ." (Luke 10:12)

Some of the very ones you pity for being killed in a divine judgment will in the last Judgment for eternal destiny wonder what was with you who had the teaching of the Son of God coming to you.

Their being judged in the flesh is not necessarily indicative of their eternal destiny.

Jesus said it will be more tolerable for them in the last day than for some who had the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus to accept or reject.

Perhaps you should save your pity for yourself.

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When the christians themself tell us that "Fear God", then he can't be that good, can he? (www.feargod.com) Why should I be thankful for that kind of evil bastard anyway?

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That's rather stupid. You never had a healthy "fear" that your dad would discipline you if you did something not good for your own good?

If your parents strongly told you not to, say, throw rocks at passing cars with the bad boys, or else they would wallop your behind - What did you do? React that they were monsters to make you "fear" them?

Rather stupid.

Do you have kids ? I pity them if you're so much of a whimp that you cannot warn them of parental discipline if they act in a way dangerous to their own, or someone else's well being.

What are you, the ultimate permissivist?

Or are you eager to push to some absurd extreme any warning from God? You judge any warning from a righteous God as His cruelity to make you be scared to death of the divine?

( You never put you and Jesus on a scale of comparison did you ?)


I think you should rather fear your own stupidity. Who knows? Maybe you would call your own dad a bastard too.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===========================

Jeseus was a great philosopher, but if he was son of god, I'm not so sure about. The jews agrees with me.

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Why would you say someone was a great philosopher if they told what they knew not to be true as truth?

Why would you say someone was a great philosopher is they were d ...[text shortened]... of comparison did you ?)


I think you should rather fear your own stupidity.[/b]

Bad parents bring fear to his children.
Good parents bring love to his children.
He never kills them. If so, he would be evil.

If you say that Jesus was not a great philosopher, then perhaps I should agree...?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Bad parents bring fear to his children.
Good parents bring love to his children.
He never kills them. If so, he would be evil.

If you say that Jesus was not a great philosopher, then perhaps I should agree...?

More idiocy. False dichotomy - "to bring fear of discipline is to NOT show love."

More warped skeptical idiocy.


Good parents don't cause the child to fear consequences of bad behavior. Good parents love them and NEVER warn them of parental discipline.

False dichotomy. Good parents know how to regulate BOTH aspects of parenting.

As the Heavenly Father does.

You know some fools, when you give them a turkey dinner only hunt for the bones to choke on.

Are the rules of this Website ONLY the attempt to cause the particpants to FEAR the administrators for FEAR's sake ?

Does the speed limit on the highway have no other purpose but to strike fear into us of the traffic police ?


What warped thinking.