Was heaven empty before Christ?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
How was what I said racist? I said that most of the christians that I have met believe that jews go to hell when they die because they don't believe that jesus was the son of god or the messiah.

I said nothing about christians in totality or jews in totality. How was it racist?

I am not saying what jews are supposed to believe in at all. Where did ty meaningless - especially when it comes to what modern christians hold in their beliefs.

I think you missed my point or missunderstood. Doesnt mater what the case is...
I meant that remark was a bit on the racist side, not you.
And if I effended you I am really sorry. That wasnt what I wanted to do.
But the Idea of heaven thing is most relevant even if you cant se it.
Because the cristians belive in jesus. right?
And belive in hell.
Heaven right?
Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's not a very monotoistic religion now is it.
G-D, jesus,holly ghost and satan and not counting the saint's....
thats 123......stop.
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Here is litle something for you to eat, he was going to jerusalem to comit suecide, witch is a big no no in the jewish belife, so diviesed a plan to let the romans do the dirty work for him.
But the cristians to day don't even know who hanged on the cross for them, Bar Abas.... or jesus.... Bar means Son of, aba means Father in hebrew.
Guess if only that puts some questions into focus.

Originally posted by jaywill
More idiocy. [b] False dichotomy - "to bring fear of discipline is to NOT show love."

More warped skeptical idiocy.


Good parents don't cause the child to fear consequences of bad behavior. Good parents love them and NEVER warn them of parental discipline.

False dichotomy. Good parents know how to regulate BOTH aspects of parenting. ...[text shortened]... You know some fools, when you give them a turkey dinner only hunt for the bones to choke on.[/b]

I'm glad that you are not my father, I say! 😛 What a childhood...!

Originally posted by theprotectors
I think you missed my point or missunderstood. Doesnt mater what the case is...
I meant that remark was a bit on the racist side, not you.
And if I effended you I am really sorry. That wasnt what I wanted to do.
But the Idea of heaven thing is most relevant even if you cant se it.
Because the cristians belive in jesus. right?
And belive in hell.
...[text shortened]... eans Son of, aba means Father in hebrew.
Guess if only that puts some questions into focus.

I maintain the remark was not at all racist either.

I don't see your point at all really.

There is a definite separation between what Jews believe and what Christians believe. In both groups there are different groups that believe different things - but there are general core beliefs within the religions.

I'm not really offended, just confused as to why you thought that remark was racist and where you are getting at with all of this.

Originally posted by jaywill
Its typical, Every atheist always thinks he is very clever, being rather very blinded.

I may be blinded (obviously I wouldn't know if I was), but at least I can put up a good argument for my beliefs whereas you cant seem to.

However, this all is a moot point for someone who thinks his level of righteousness exceeds that of Jesus Christ.
Yes I realize that you cannot criticize Jesus as a matter of faith. I guess it would be blasphemy. But pause for a moment and think about Muhammad. Do you consider yourself to be morally superior to him? If you dont, shame on you. If you do, do you see how your comments about me starting a world religion are utterly ridiculous?

That must mean that for NOTHING in your life you need forgiveness. go tell the good news to all your family that you are more good than Jesus and require forgiveness by NO ONE for ANYTHING.
Where do you draw that ridiculous conclusion from? Oh, I see, you are confusing me with a theist - you think that I think that Jesus was morally perfect. But wait, I already told you that I thought he wasn't and even gave some examples to prove it.

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I may be blinded (obviously I wouldn't know if I was), but at least I can put up a good argument for my beliefs whereas you cant seem to.

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Take comfort in that and be happy. That and a buck seventy five may get you a burger at Burger Kings.

YOU can make GOOOOOOOD arguments. Congradulations !!!

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Yes I realize that you cannot criticize Jesus as a matter of faith. I guess it would be blasphemy.

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Pontius Pilate had no faith in Jesus and he couldn't criticize him either.

"I find no fault in Him"


Oooops sorry, I'm not suppose to be able to make arguments.


Got to go now. Whatever.

Originally posted by jaywill
YOU can make GOOOOOOOD arguments. Congradulations !!!

Thank you

Oooops sorry, I'm not suppose to be able to make arguments.
Don't worry you weren't.
Let me tell you why:
1. If someone doesn't do something it doesn't mean he cant. You claimed that Pontius Pilate couldn't do something and thought you had proved it by showing that he didn't.
2. The fact that some ancient Roman whose morals even you would seriously question didn't want to get involved in a religious fight with the Jewish pharisees doesn't help your argument. In fact, Jesus probably did not break the Roman law, and thus Pontius Pilate was quite right. That does not however tell us anything about his views on Jesus' morals which were not in question anyway.
3. I personally don't believe that Pontius Pilate said those words or even got involved in any trial involving the person portrayed in the New Testament. So presenting as evidence something you know I believe to be false doesn't help your argument either.

So why is it so difficult for you to actually stand up for Jesus and show his moral character to be as flawless as you claim? Can you for example present any evidence that Jesus spoke against the morally reprehensible laws of the old testament? Can you present any evidence for him standing up for womens rights? Does he preach against the death penalty? Does he say anything against slavery?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I maintain the remark was not at all racist either.

I don't see your point at all really.

There is a definite separation between what Jews believe and what Christians believe. In both groups there are different groups that believe different things - but there are general core beliefs within the religions.

I'm not really offended, just confused as to why you thought that remark was racist and where you are getting at with all of this.

Ofcourse you don't.
But then again you seem not have any sympathy to wards the jews either. Who was on the other side of a "nice" comment.

Originally posted by jaywill
Even as an agnostic - a gentlemen agnostic could pray:

"I don't know if God exists. But if there is a God I want to say thank you God for at least this or that. "

How do you define a "gentleman agnostic"? A christian (of which the person believes in a specific kind of god that has already been defined), or on the other extreme, an ignostic (where god would first have to be defined before god's existence can be even discussed)?

What does an ignostic thank then?

Originally posted by theprotectors
Ofcourse you don't.
But then again you seem not have any sympathy to wards the jews either. Who was on the other side of a "nice" comment.

What are you talking about? I don't have any sympathy towards the jews? That's a ridiculous statement and I'm not sure what sympathy I should have towards jews over anyone else - I definitely don't have any antipathy towards jews nor have I shown any.

My statement was based on the christian standards on who does and does not go to hell or heaven. Those standards are different in every religion that believes in hell and heaven and usually they tend to exclude those who don't follow that religion.

I don't have any less sympathy for jews than I have for christians or muslims or anyone and my statement said nothing about that. What specifically should I have sympathy for jews for over members of other faiths?

Can you provide a real explanation as to what was racist about my statement?

I'm still waiting for any kind of an explanation as to what was racist about my statement.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
What are you talking about? I don't have any sympathy towards the jews? That's a ridiculous statement and I'm not sure what sympathy I should have towards jews over anyone else - I definitely don't have any antipathy towards jews nor have I shown any.

My statement was based on the christian standards on who does and does not go to hell or heaven. Thos ...[text shortened]... 'm still waiting for any kind of an explanation as to what was racist about my statement.

ok!!!
Theise wors where yours Right?
The response the host gave was that they were in a purgatory or waiting area of sorts and when christ came along they all had the choice of believing or not believing and if they believed then they got a gold star and if they didn't then they went to torment in hell.
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I know you only parafrased it but have you actully realized what it means?
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I found that a bit racist but thats meand for the record I never said you where only this statment as long as we get that clear...
The longing the crisians have is to get the jews to belive in the same thing as they are, is a moronic idea at best. Why would the jews belive in one of their own, I dont get it.
But that's beside the point. Ahh yes, your statment of exluding other whome not bilve in same religion is some parts true but not all of it, your forgeting that the jews say evryone get heaven and geting their punishment their.
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Originally posted by theprotectors
ok!!!
Theise wors where yours Right?
The response the host gave was that they were in a purgatory or waiting area of sorts and when christ came along they all had the choice of believing or not believing and if they believed then they got a gold star and if they didn't then they went to torment in hell.
______________________________________________ ...[text shortened]... eting their punishment their.
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The response the host gave was that they were in a purgatory or waiting area of sorts and when christ came along they all had the choice of believing or not believing and if they believed then they got a gold star and if they didn't then they went to torment in hell.

Those were NOT my words. They were the words of a radio host that I happened to come upon when flipping through channels in my car.

I never said I believed them - in fact in this thread I specifically have said that I DO NOT believe them.

The longing the crisians have is to get the jews to belive in the same thing as they are, is a moronic idea at best.

Many christians do long to have jews believe the same thing they do. I'm not judging that right now, but I do think it's annoying when they try.

Why would the jews belive in one of their own

Why would the jews believe in their own god, heaven and hell? Because it's their own faith and it's different. That's why.

your statment of exluding other whome not bilve in same religion is some parts true but not all of it

My statement that you responded to was that most of the christians that I have met believe that jews will go to hell because they don't believe in jesus being the messiah.

That's not saying what I believe at all.

your forgeting that the jews say evryone get heaven and geting their punishment their.

I said nothing about what jews believe, nor is that relevant to the question at hand.

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Purgatory? One has to ask the question, wouldn't this be like eternal life without the need to acquire material sustenance? Life without the need to acquire food and shelter would be a heaven of sorts would it not? I mean, lets face it, all of the evils that are done on Earth generally revolve around people taking things from other people. If there is no ...[text shortened]... ntly reduced, possibly even extinguished. I therefore have to ask, what's better about heaven?

There is no purgatory. Whoever claims such a place exists is not a scholar on the subject--it is not in the Bible.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
[b]
The response the host gave was that they were in a purgatory or waiting area of sorts and when christ came along they all had the choice of believing or not believing and if they believed then they got a gold star and if they didn't then they went to torment in hell.

Those were NOT my words. They were the words of a radio host that I happened ...[text shortened]...

I said nothing about what jews believe, nor is that relevant to the question at hand.[/b]

Good points.
But I know you missed on one question because you didnt understand the question so I will refrace that on for you.
Why should the jews belive in jesus who was one of their own was my mening to say.
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And ok I am sorry for the fact I might have puched the words so it would looked like I thought you belived in it this. That was never , and never will be my inteent.

And by the way Thank you for your patiance.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
There is no purgatory. Whoever claims such a place exists is not a scholar on the subject--it is not in the Bible.

Some theists belive in Jesus as the son of god. Some do not. The theists are not agreeing eachother. Perhaps they belong to different religions?

Some theists belive in a purgatory. Some do not. The theists are not agreeing eachother. Perhaps they belong to different religions?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
There is no purgatory. Whoever claims such a place exists is not a scholar on the subject--it is not in the Bible.

Whoever claims that nothing exists unless it is in the Bible is brainwashed. I am not in the Bible, nor is Zambia, do we not exist?

I am sure that there were plenty of scholars on the subject of purgatory through most of the history of the Catholic Church who believed it existed. Your declaration that they were not scholars does not make it so.