What are you still doing here?

Originally posted by serigado
"Entropy, Order Parameters and Complexity", by James Sethna, Oxford Press
You are worth it too.
I'll paraphrase the first paragraph.

"Many systems in nature are far too complex to analyze directly, [...] despite this, such systems often show simple, striking behavior. Statistical mechanics explains the simple behavior of complex systems"

You'll lear n never be taken as a starting point to make affirmations about your life. No book can.

What is something worth? Is it based upon complexity? Is it based on emensity? It it based upon intelligence? Is it based upon knowledge?

The Bible says that God is love. So whats love got to do with it you may ask? It has everything to do with it. This is our worth. This is what makes us tick!!

Paul is quoted as saying that even though I may have all knowledge and all spiritual gifts and all faith etc, etc but do not have love I am NOTHING!! No love is equivalent to no net worth. In fact, you could have all the scientific answers that the universe contains. However, if you a loveless prick, so to speak, who really cares? Not me.

I think this is why mankind is so important to God. He seeks the one thing in the universe he has set free!! Who cares that we may have the intelligence of an ant compared to God or that we live on a small planet in the universe that is smaller than a speck of dust comaperd to that universe? God has 100% control over all the universe EXCEPT our free will to love him back.

Originally posted by serigado
For me? What would I have to gain by submitting? Couldn't I just love God without the diminishing part? Must I do it as a "proof" to him?
What if I refuse to do it and I am a good person? According to the religious boys I would go to hell for eternity. Would that be god's justice? I'll never acknowledge a God with such a sense of justice.

What you gain is proper persective, keeping things in the proper
light allows you to act accordingly. You do not honor a rapest as you
would your child, you don't obey a King like you do a two year old,
and God being God is both your Lord even if you reject Him, and
your creator even if you deny Him. If you are putting honor where it
belongs you do so as it is right to do, God alone is worthy of your
worship you are to important to give it to anyone or anything else.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
If you have already been 'saved' or your salvation is guaranteed, then why hasn't God taken you to heaven yet? If he is all loving, then surely he would spare you any possible further suffering here on earth? So does he not love you that much or is your salvation not guaranteed?

If I am taken to heaven and I still have my bad temper and a problem with pride, lust, anxiety, self centeredness, - is my going there with these character problems in my being, "saved?"

Did God save everyone who believed in him from suffering?

Abraham, Jacob, David, the prophets - Did they all get immediately exempted from further suffering because they believed in God?

I suspect that you, twhitehead, have noticed that this is a rather superficial concept of God's salvation. I think you probably are fond of it because it gives you something to taunt young believers in Christ about. Is that it?

What other handy dandy strawmen can you erect from the Bible by skemming superficially over the surface ?

Maybe you could tease us and ask Why we have not yet sprouted wings like angels. Huh? Huh??

Originally posted by whodey
What is something worth? Is it based upon complexity? Is it based on emensity? It it based upon intelligence? Is it based upon knowledge?

The Bible says that God is love. So whats love got to do with it you may ask? It has everything to do with it. This is our worth. This is what makes us tick!!

Paul is quoted as saying that even though I may ha ...[text shortened]... hat universe? God has 100% control over all the universe EXCEPT our free will to love him back.

I have need for knowledge. As for love, as long as I'm simple, honest and sincere I will always have someone to love me.

And I don't need God to have love. Maybe we're talking about different kinds of love, I don't know.
If God seeks my love, he'll have to do much better then promise me eternal life in exchange for submission. I'm a though client, sorry.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you gain is proper persective, keeping things in the proper
light allows you to act accordingly. You do not honor a rapest as you
would your child, you don't obey a King like you do a two year old,
and God being God is both your Lord even if you reject Him, and
your creator even if you deny Him. If you are putting honor where it
belongs you do so ...[text shortened]... e is worthy of your
worship you are to important to give it to anyone or anything else.
Kelly

Respect and Love is earned , not imposed. God has done nothing to deserve either from me. An old, dubious book and a fairy tale story 2k yrs ago are not enough.
Even taking those to be true, they are simply internally incoherent, and promise me things I'm not interested in. I seek knowledge, not love. I don't care who created me. I care about who am I now and for those that I love.

Originally posted by serigado
Respect and Love is earned , not imposed. God has done nothing to deserve either from me. An old, dubious book and a fairy tale story 2k yrs ago are not enough.
Even taking those to be true, they are simply internally incoherent, and promise me things I'm not interested in. I seek knowledge, not love. I don't care who created me. I care about who am I now and for those that I love.

God by the power of his Word has created the universe and all that is
in it, and holds it together by the power of His Word. He designed all
the laws of the universe in His power they are, by His design. He has
done more for you than you can know, it is not that He has not done
anything making Him worthy of praise, it is only those things that are
done through and with God will remain with any hope of eternal
worth, with regard to you feeling compiled to be either grateful or
respectful to Him that is completely up to you. The works of this world
will end with its passing and all that can be shaken will be and only
those things that can will remain.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
God by the power of his Word has created the universe and all that is
in it, and holds it together by the power of His Word. He designed all
the laws of the universe in His power they are, by His design. He has
done more for you than you can know, it is not that He has not done
anything making Him worthy of praise, it is only those things that are
done ...[text shortened]... s passing and all that can be shaken will be and only
those things that can will remain.
Kelly

If that is true, the only thing I truly have of mine is my intellect and my free will. That's what makes me individual. Why should I submit myself to God. If God exists and we met, I'll thank him for the job, but he'll get no submission from me, unless he obliges me to.
If you want to be a sheep under his command, go ahead. Nothing will distinguish you from the remaining sheeps out there.

When you talk about "God's Love", you remember me those house wives who get beaten all the time but still say they love their husband.
The fundamental, now:
The moment I am punished by having my own opinion and wanting to be independent of God, I lose respect for God, because in reality I am not having another option. Is that Love? "Love me, or go to Hell" ??

Originally posted by serigado
You didn't address the point: How can a just and loving. God simply send someone forever to eternal punishment?
It seems that during lifetime we have all the time to repent and find God, but after we die, we simply go to Heaven or Hell, and that's it. I don't share God's policy on this point.

From what I get from Heaven, we won't be able to sin. We won' ...[text shortened]... will, and seems quite the boring place. It's only the least bad of the two alternatives.

You didn't address the point: How can a just and loving. God simply send someone forever to eternal punishment?
You bring a point that cannot yet be addressed. Until such time as you address the previous topics, this one is incomprehensible.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]You didn't address the point: How can a just and loving. God simply send someone forever to eternal punishment?
You bring a point that cannot yet be addressed. Until such time as you address the previous topics, this one is incomprehensible.[/b]

What previous topics?

Originally posted by serigado
I have need for knowledge. As for love, as long as I'm simple, honest and sincere I will always have someone to love me.

And I don't need God to have love. Maybe we're talking about different kinds of love, I don't know.
If God seeks my love, he'll have to do much better then promise me eternal life in exchange for submission. I'm a though client, sorry.

Saying that you have no need God to have love is like not understanding that the very reason you exist is because of God's love. The fact that you need love is an indication that your maker has made you in his image. However, when you go against the law of love this is regarded as sin in the Bible and is why we suffer.

The Bible says that we love God because he first loved us. He was first to reach out to us in love and offer us a way back to him and this cost him a trip to the cross. No doubt you will refuse God's love if you view it as coersion. As I said before, if one thinks that they are being coerced the natural reaction is to push them away. This is because love involves free will. However, if you view the cross as coersion then so be it there is nothing I can say to that.

Originally posted by jaywill
If I am taken to heaven and I still have my bad temper and a problem with pride, lust, anxiety, self centeredness, - is my going there with these character problems in my being, "saved?"

Did God save everyone who believed in him from suffering?

Abraham, Jacob, David, the prophets - Did they all get immediately exempted from further suffering ...[text shortened]...
Maybe you could tease us and ask Why we have not yet sprouted wings like angels. Huh? Huh??

EDIT: Delete presumptuous post.

Originally posted by whodey
Saying that you have no need God to have love is like not understanding that the very reason you exist is because of God's love. The fact that you need love is an indication that your maker has made you in his image. However, when you go against the law of love this is regarded as sin in the Bible and is why we suffer.

The Bible says that we love God bec ...[text shortened]... However, if you view the cross as coersion then so be it there is nothing I can say to that.

That is your belief, your model. I respect it, but it doesn't apply for me.
There's coercion because God is sending to Hell all who don't believe in him, FOREVER, without possible redemption. Isn't this coercive? I never talked about the cross being coercive.
Our possible choices of free will are: Follow God, or suffer eternal punishment... This is the good resume. Where's true love in here?

Originally posted by serigado
If that is true, the only thing I truly have of mine is my intellect and my free will. That's what makes me individual. Why should I submit myself to God. If God exists and we met, I'll thank him for the job, but he'll get no submission from me, unless he obliges me to.
If you want to be a sheep under his command, go ahead. Nothing will distinguish you fro ...[text shortened]... use in reality I am not having another option. Is that Love? "Love me, or go to Hell" ??

You are free to do as you will for whatever reason you want to do it.
You like everyone even in this life will either reap rewards or not for
those things you do and do not do, it is the way of life as we live it,
and for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Kelly

Originally posted by Jay Joos
Depends if you believe in the particular religion... otherwise i cant object to a childs proper education!!!

Of course it can't depende on whether you believe in the religion or not. A child should ALWAYS have an independent education, and be exposed to the greatest number of situations and philosophies possible, and not being told "this" or "that" is the real way. He must decide it's own path.
There's nothing more said then seeing a poor child following the stupid religion of his parents just because they want to.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are free to do as you will for whatever reason you want to do it.
You like everyone even in this life will either reap rewards or not for
those things you do and do not do, it is the way of life as we live it,
and for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Kelly

Serving the Lord above free thinking. Good way to go. Another fundamentalist home in America. God Bless You.