What is Good?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The reason I posted the story, which is an old story(author unknown) is because man really doesn't know what is good for him.
My theory is that if we had never had the bible, if there was no God, the world would be a worse mess than it is right now.
If darkness is an absence of light, then this world would be a very dark place.
So you see, without us Christians, you guys wouldn't have any fun...😉

The story you posted comes from the Zen-influenced Asian tradition, and the moral of the story you are superimposing on it, that man is lost with an external God telling us what to do, is not at all how this story is understood.

Your conclusion is fine by itself, but the story on its own terms suggests something else, which is that 'good,' 'bad,' 'lucky,' and 'unlucky' might not be absolute truths but judgments created by self-centered habits of thinking.

Originally posted by Algernon
The story you posted comes from the Zen-influenced Asian tradition, and the moral of the story you are superimposing on it, that man is lost with an external God telling us what to do, is not at all how this story is understood.

Your conclusion is fine by itself, but the story on its own terms suggests something else, which is that 'good,' 'bad,' ...[text shortened]... nlucky' might not be absolute truths but judgments created by self-centered habits of thinking.

I agree....I heard the story long ago and paraphrased it by memory. I liked it, because things similiar to the story happen every day.
I agree with all your points too, they are self-centered habits of thinking, and one might say they are natural thoughts, and expected.
But as I said, how does one define good, not really knowing what it is, as this story indicates?
My point again,being a Christian, is as I stated earlier....

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree....I heard the story long ago and paraphrased it by memory. I liked it, because things similiar to the story happen every day.
I agree with all your points too, they are self-centered habits of thinking, and one might say they are natural thoughts, and expected.
But as I said, how does one define good, not really knowing what it is, as this story indicates?
My point again,being a Christian, is as I stated earlier....

Let your conscious be your guide 😉

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Let your conscious be your guide 😉

Following my conscience, before I became a Christian, could get me in a lot of trouble.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Following my conscience, before I became a Christian, could get me in a lot of trouble.

I believe that people are created good.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I believe that people are created good.

Have you ever heard of a "sin nature"?


Eph 2:3
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
(NKJ)

🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Following my conscience, before I became a Christian, could get me in a lot of trouble.

If it got you in trouble, it wasn't your conscience.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Have you ever heard of a "sin nature"?


Eph 2:3
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
(NKJ)

🙂

It's a pity hell is chalked full of all those wrathful children and babies.
I guess God has to keep the fires burning somehow.

Food is good. Unless it's bad.

Originally posted by Algernon
If it got you in trouble, it wasn't your conscience.

Ever hear of a conscience "seared with a hot iron"?
Example...
Someone who steals and is not caught, does so again and again, and after awhile the conscience does not bother him/her.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
It's a pity hell is chalked full of all those wrathful children and babies.
I guess God has to keep the fires burning somehow.

Hell is a traditional Christian teaching fueled by Greek Mythology.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ever hear of a conscience "seared with a hot iron"?
Example...
Someone who steals and is not caught, does so again and again, and after awhile the conscience does not bother him/her.

I believe what you are referring to is the process by which somebody becomes a sociopath. If somebody does something that is wrong and gets away with it repeatedly, they loose there capacity for empathy and ultimately care only for that which is in their interest.

I would argue that this is the process of loosing ones conscience, and our conscience is what prevents most people from going down this road.

Since we are all born with a conscience, I still say that people are born good.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ever hear of a conscience "seared with a hot iron"?
Example...
Someone who steals and is not caught, does so again and again, and after awhile the conscience does not bother him/her.

You have described a person who has no communication with their conscience whatsoever. I don't understand what your point is.

Originally posted by Algernon
You have described a person who has no communication with their conscience whatsoever. I don't understand what your point is.

My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil. That is, they are born with a "sinful nature". Even though many appear to be good, they have the potential to do evil. This evil does not need to be blatant. What most are not aware of except for the individual, is motive.
I can appear to be an excellent worker, when the boss is around. I can appear to do good but only to impress someone else, and so on.
What is at fault, is the human heart. That is why Jesus said...

Matt 15:18-20
18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
20 "These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
(NKJ)

The heart is sick and the following verse though it is not reflected in the English says it is incurably sick.


Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
(NKJ)

If it cannot be fixed, it must be replaced, and that is exactly what God does when someone submits to His Son Jesus Christ.


Ezek 36:26-28
26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
(NKJ)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil. That is, they are born with a "sinful nature". Even though many appear to be good, they have the potential to do evil. This evil does not need to be blatant. What most are not aware of except for the individual, is motive.

Evil is a concept. What you call 'sinful nature,' I call delusion. We kill, steal, fornicate, lie, and hide behind religions, all because of mistaken notions of what we are. We surrender our judgment to greed, anger, and delusion. To that extent, I agree that we are 'fallen.'

We part ways after that. I believe human beings can do something about that problem; I even believe that this is something God wants us to do. I think it's what we are supposed to do.

You are right that an action can appear to be good, but that it can hide darker motives. Likewise, actions that are supposed to be 'bad' can be undertaken for the right reasons. So what's important is direction. In my tradition, we stress the grave importance of having a clear direction, rather than applying literal laws of morality that may or may not adequately address a complex situation. The question of direction, as opposed to blindly following God's word without developing ones conscience, is key to spiritual maturity.

So I want to return to this question of conscience, because you seem to have dismissed its existence in previous posts. We are born evil, you say; does this mean we do not have a conscience? Do we have a limited conscience? Was it not conscience that led you to listen to God's word?

You say that following your conscience can lead to trouble. I am intrigued by that statement, and repeat something I said earlier: if you got into trouble, you weren't really following your conscience.