What is Good?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil.

If a baby dies it goes to Heaven right? So if a baby is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for you?

II Tim 1:7 "For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind."

If what you said is true then there would be no good people at all. Science is proving that our behavior and emotions are actually contained in our DNA. Empathy, morals, the capacity for love, these things are in our genes.

Jer 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart"

Sounds like our heart is good enough for God. Why isn't it for you?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
If a baby dies it goes to Heaven right? So if a baby is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for you?

II Tim 1:7 "For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind."

If what you said is true then there would be no good people at all. Science is proving that our behavior and emotions are actual ...[text shortened]... me with all your heart"

Sounds like our heart is good enough for God. Why isn't it for you?

Don't ask me why the computer put everything in bold. I have no idea.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil. That is, they are born with a "sinful nature". Even though many appear to be good, they have the potential to do evil. This evil does not need to be blatant. What most are not aware of except for the individual, is motive.
I can appear to be an excellent worker, when the boss is ar ...[text shortened]... in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
(NKJ)

I believe the passages you referenced in Ezekiel simply refer to what a child's heart may become when he/she grows up.

Mark 8:17 "...Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? Have ye your heart yet hardened?"

Jesus makes it pretty clear that children are blessed and good.

Matthew 18:3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14 "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

All these passages that both you and I have found seem to indicate that we are created good, grow up, go through all the crap that can harden a heart, and then we have to find that lost innocence that we had as children. This is the idea of being "born again."

Originally posted by Algernon
Evil is a concept. What you call 'sinful nature,' I call delusion. We kill, steal, fornicate, lie, and hide behind religions, all because of mistaken notions of what we are. We surrender our judgment to greed, anger, and delusion. To that extent, I agree that we are 'fallen.'

We part ways after that. I believe human beings can do something abou ...[text shortened]... omething I said earlier: if you got into trouble, you weren't really following your conscience.

A conscience is simply the amount of guilt a person feels/thinks, etc.


1) conscience. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide. b. A source of moral...

Every one is different. What you do and have no guilt over, may not be the same for me. A conscience is "trained", or can be. Upbringing has a great influence.

So, with that said, let's take an example...
A Bonnie and Clyde take their kids when they steal. The kids see no wrong with stealing. Of course this is a crude example, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with different scenarios.

So, I have been brought up with a strong influence of drug use. I get busted one day and wonder what's wrong with society? I didn't do anything wrong....
You see we don't all have clear direction, actually, it might be clear, just wrong. So who decides what is right and wrong?..Your opinion is as good as the next....that is why the bible is clear on this matter, as I have shown...

Originally posted by The Chess Express
If a baby dies it goes to Heaven right? So if a baby is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for you?

II Tim 1:7 "For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind."

If what you said is true then there would be no good people at all. Science is proving that our behavior and emotions are actual ...[text shortened]... me with all your heart"

Sounds like our heart is good enough for God. Why isn't it for you?

You are taking scripture that helps your point and discard the rest.
Either the whole bible is true or none of it...and since you think the bible is full of error and not authored by God, why do you continue to quote it?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I believe the passages you referenced in Ezekiel simply refer to what a child's heart may become when he/she grows up.

Mark 8:17 "...Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? Have ye your heart yet hardened?"

Jesus makes it pretty clear that children are blessed and good.

Matthew 18:3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and ...[text shortened]... e to find that lost innocence that we had as children. This is the idea of being "born again."

The verses you quote are directed at the disciples...were they "children"?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
A conscience is simply the amount of guilt a person feels/thinks, etc. ... we don't all have clear direction, actually, it might be clear, just wrong. So who decides what is right and wrong?..Your opinion is as good as the next....that is why the bible is clear on this matter, as I have shown...

In this post, you assert that conscience = guilt, and cite a definition from the American Heritage Dictionary as if it backs you up, but it doesn't. It says nothing about guilt. "Awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct" doesn't have to do with guilt. Guilt is a different phenomenon altogether.

There are different ways of thinking about why we behave ethically. I explain my viewpoint only for correspondence, not because I want to change your way of thinking about it. There is the school of thought that we need to scare ourselves or shame or guilt ourselves into behaving in a civilized manner. There is another school of thought, too, that suggests when we are truly mature and awake, there is no need for guilt, shame, or fear (as in fear of punishment or eternal damnation), because genuine compassion is a guide.

When one is truly sensitive to the affect of their actions on others as well as one themselves, when one is fully conscious and intimate with their lives, a person's choices will tend to reflect that. If they are not awake to this, their choices will tend to reflect that. I don't think guilt has much to do with that. Is it guilt that prevents me from slapping myself in the face? Of course not. I don't slap myself in the face because I care about myself. When I truly care about myself, I don't have any need to slap you in the face, either.

We agree that we don't all have clear direction all the time. That is why ground rules and civil laws can be useful things, to help us navigate our different ideas. You like the Holy Bible and believe it has the best answers to our questions. That is fine, but if I turned on you and said, no, we should follow the Buddhist precepts, you might feel a bit annoyed. Who am I to assume that my religious beliefs are superior and more 'true' than yours?

And regardless of whether we follow the Bible, the Q'ran, the Holy Bible, the writings of Confucius, or the Jedi Code 😵 - they don't really help us mature if we just attach to external rules. External rules do not answer every single situation. They can set down broad principles for us to follow, like road signs, but there are those situations where following a road sign isn't the best choice. I have read and appreciate the Bible, but I still feel the work of realization falls on us. (Like I said somewhere in these forums, I would go so far as to say I think God wants us to do it.)

Originally posted by Algernon
In this post, you assert that conscience = guilt, and cite a definition from the American Heritage Dictionary as if it backs you up, but it doesn't. It says nothing about guilt. "Awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct" doesn't have to do with guilt. Guilt is a different phenomenon altogether.

There are different ways of thinkin ...[text shortened]... ke I said somewhere in these forums, I would go so far as to say I think God wants us to do it.)

Ok, I like your opinion here. What you call realization, I suppose I would call accountability, either to God, myself or whatever.
Where we part in our opinions is the bible, since to me it is the manual for life.
It contains the best way to live life, and it teaches much wisdom... and it was written by the author of life.
Of course thats my opinion, and I am not trying to change your way of thinking either, I have learned to listen and respect the opinions of others too.....and that is found in the bible.....The bible also teaches that we are to examine ourselves.....so I agree with you on many points.....Peace.

🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
A conscience is simply the amount of guilt a person feels/thinks, etc.


1) conscience. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide. b. A source of moral...

Every ...[text shortened]... nion is as good as the next....that is why the bible is clear on this matter, as I have shown...

Opinion is different from conscience. What makes you assume that the kids in your examples would want to do any of that? At least the first few times they probably wouldn't.

What have you clearly shown?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You are taking scripture that helps your point and discard the rest.
Either the whole bible is true or none of it...and since you think the bible is full of error and not authored by God, why do you continue to quote it?

"My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil."

I continue to quote the bible because rubbish like this continues to be said. I have explained how the passages that you've quoted reconcile with what I've quoted, and I believe that the Bible has truth in it.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The verses you quote are directed at the disciples...were they "children"?

Matthew 18:3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus is simply saying that in order to accept God and be accepted by God, it is necessary to have the heart of a child. This means a heart that is humble, open, not full of hate, hurt, fear, arrogance, you know, the stuff that this world gives us.

In that way his disciples were like children, and as you can't seem to comprehend, in that way children are good as God created them.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Opinion is different from conscience. What makes you assume that the kids in your examples would want to do any of that? At least the first few times they probably wouldn't.

What have you clearly shown?

Like Father Like Son....surely you have heard the expression...

Originally posted by The Chess Express
"My point is that no one is born "good". All of mankind is born evil."

I continue to quote the bible because rubbish like this continues to be said. I have explained how the passages that you've quoted reconcile with what I've quoted, and I believe that the Bible has truth in it.

Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(NKJ)

Is this rubbish?..or is this one of the scriptures you throw out?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Matthew 18:3 "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus is simply saying that in order to accept God and be accepted by God, it is necessary to have the heart of a child. This means a heart that is humble, open, not full of hate, hurt, fear, arrogance, yo ...[text shortened]... ildren, and as you can't seem to comprehend, in that way children are good as God created them.

Agreed.
You should carefully read Romans chapter 7.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(NKJ)

Is this rubbish?..or is this one of the scriptures you throw out?

So by your line of reasoning, what you are saying is that because nobody is perfect, we all are evil. If somebody is good their whole life, but commits one minor sin, they were born evil.

This is taking the passages out of context. Jesus would never have said that children are blessed and good if it wasn't necessary to balance the good with the bad.

This is what I mean when I say that we are born good. If we were born evil, their wouldn't be any good in this world at all. If we follow your all or nothing principle, it is necessary to disregard much of what the Bible says.

Have you become perfect since you became a Christian? No, of coarse not, but you believe that you are forgiven right? Would you be forgiven if you were more bad than good? Do you think that God can't tell the difference? This is the reason why babies don't go to hell when they die, because God sees that they are more good than bad, not because they call themselves Christians.