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01 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressYou do not seem to understand the implications of the "fall of man" in the garden of Eden, and the purpose of Jesus Christ.
So by your line of reasoning, what you are saying is that because nobody is perfect, we all are evil. If somebody is good their whole life, but commits one minor sin, they were born evil.
This is taking the passages out of context. Jesus would never have said that children are blessed and good if it wasn't necessary to balance the good with th ...[text shortened]... because God sees that they are more good than bad, not because they call themselves Christians.
What do you suppose is meant by "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"?
What you are implying is that some are good, and have no need of "Redemption".
Since the fall( Genesis chapter 3) all of mankind is born with a "sinful nature".
That is why you don't have to teach kids to be selfish, it is "inherant".
The heart is at fault. People need to be redeemed by Christ. Unbelievers god is Satan. They sin, because it is their nature. We are in need of a new nature, thus Jesus Christ, became our Saviour.
This is all basic Christianity. When one is "born again" there is a transformation. Now the Father of Jesus Christ becomes the God of the believer. Yes, you are correct, Christians still sin because they still have the sinful nature along with the new nature. When Jesus returns for His Church(people), then the sinful nature will be done away with.
In the meantime, this is every Christians battle in the mind, that is we have a choice...to obey the sinful nature or the new nature.
The new nature is "put on" by studing the Word of God, and applying it in our daily lives.
Rom 13:14
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
(NKJ)
Gal 3:27
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:20-32
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.
26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
(NKJ)
02 Oct 05
4 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes...this has probably been the position of the church for the past
You do not seem to understand the implications of the "fall of man" in the garden of Eden, and the purpose of Jesus Christ.
What do you suppose is meant by "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"?
What you are implying is that some are good, and have no need of "Redemption".
Since the fall( Genesis chapter 3) all of mankind i ...[text shortened]... to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.
(NKJ)
two thousand years, and it leaves far more questions than answers. There is
a basic contradiction that this position cannot explain. Why would a
God who is just, fair, and full of love, and mercy for that matter, create
somebody who has no chance to make it into Heaven? Why would
such a God create somebody just so they would burn in Hell?
You haven't given any satisfactory answer to this, and I don't expect that you will. I can't come up with one either. Whether we are talking about a baby who dies when very young, or an old man who has never heard of Jesus but has come to know God through his own faith, the
contradiction remains the same. You can't tell me that because two
people ate an apple a long time ago, God is going to throw these
people in Hell for all eternity simply because they haven't heard of Jesus.
Maybe the first two people God created were different than us. Maybe they were closer to God than we are now. I don't know. They were not perfect though because they commited some kind of sin if that part of the Bible is reliable. Jesus was perfect, and he did not sin. So in God's eyes perfection means never sinning. Whether or not their actions affected the rest of us does not explain the contradiction mentioned above.
Yes, Jesus was like God. Yes, Jesus was the Christ. I believe that this Christ consciousness can be achieved by people who have devoted their lives to God with all of their heart. In this way, people may come to know God whether or not they have heard of Jesus. This is really the only plausible way to make sense of it.
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in Heaven is perfect."
Did Jesus not say that the Kingdom of Heaven lies within? Or that our bodies are our temple? Or that we shall do greater things than he? Does this sound like a hopless sinner to you? Yes, people sin, but sinning is a choice. How many times did Jesus tell people not to sin? By calling yourself a sinner, you are confirming that you intend to sin in the future. God does not intend for us to sin. The idea of a hopless sin nature has been nothing more than a bad excuse for the past two thousand years.
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02 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressYou don't seem to understand a bunch of the bible....
Yes...this has probably been the position of the church for the past
two thousand years, and it leaves far more questions than answers. There is
a basic contradiction that this position cannot explain. Why would a
God who is just, fair, and full of love, and mercy for that matter, create
somebody who has no chance to make it into Heaven? Wh ...[text shortened]... of a hopless sin nature has been nothing more than a bad excuse for the past two thousand years.
Here is a good site I would suggest....it's one of my favorites, but beware since it opposes "Traditional Christian Doctrine".....🙂
02 Oct 05
I mean absolutely no offense by this, but you two are like a couple of kids bickering over a soap box and a set of wheels. You'd get farther if you'd see the value of each others position and how the two contributions can combine to form something of use.
Just my perception though, post mortum equine violence not withstanding.
Pax Vobiscum,
Omnislash
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02 Oct 05
Originally posted by OmnislashI can compromise on most things, but not the Word of God.
I mean absolutely no offense by this, but you two are like a couple of kids bickering over a soap box and a set of wheels. You'd get farther if you'd see the value of each others position and how the two contributions can combine to form something of use.
Just my perception though, post mortum equine violence not withstanding.
Pax Vobiscum,
Omnislash
02 Oct 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes but above that there is no way of knowing good from bad.
No, it is more accurate to say we don't know, apart from the bible.
After that, your opinion is as good as the next.
So we dont and will never know good from bad doesn't that mean there is no good/bad?
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02 Oct 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardThis is not a mathematical equation. Just because we don't always know, does not mean there is no good nor evil.
Yes but above that there is no way of knowing good from bad.
So we dont and will never know good from bad doesn't that mean there is no good/bad?
02 Oct 05
Originally posted by OmnislashGood point.
I mean absolutely no offense by this, but you two are like a couple of kids bickering over a soap box and a set of wheels. You'd get farther if you'd see the value of each others position and how the two contributions can combine to form something of use.
Just my perception though, post mortum equine violence not withstanding.
Pax Vobiscum,
Omnislash
02 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressWe probably agree that helping someone is good and killing him is bad. But how can we know this for sure? Its based on nothing but our feeling or some instinct or our social inteligence.
My opinion is this. If you say that there is no evil then there cannot be any good. There is no light without dark, etc. And yet we still do things. This means that you have taken a relativist stand that basically everything is relative. Hitler and the like were not evil, they were acting in their own interest. If you get to that point, you either ...[text shortened]... believe that this doen't happen? Or is it just that you don't find anything wrong with it?
If there really is a good and bad maybe its actualy good to exterminate mankind so that it does not kill earth...
02 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardIt's also necessary to use good judgement. Killing people is not the idea. Empathy goes along way. When empathy is combined with ones conscience, it is not that difficult to do the right thing.
We probably agree that helping someone is good and killing him is bad. But how can we know this for sure? Its based on nothing but our feeling or some instinct or our social inteligence.
If there really is a good and bad maybe its actualy good to exterminate mankind so that it does not kill earth...
Relativism is useful if it is used to increase empathy. If it is used to understand how somebody else perceives something, then it is a good thing.
If relativism is used to destroy empathy, to say things like there is no good or evil. Hitler acted in his own interest and so he was good, etc, than it is a bad thing.