What is important

@KellyJay said
I like C.S. Lewis’ take on Christianity.

“God in the dock"
“Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance.
The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.”

It's neither true nor false, but merely one among many models of how to treat one's fellow humans.

The idea that there is any such thing as a true or false religion is like the idea that there is a true or false way to organize books in a library. Though, I grant, some make it easier or harder to find certain books in a hurry.

@moonbus said
It's neither true nor false, but merely one among many models of how to treat one's fellow humans.

The idea that there is any such thing as a true or false religion is like the idea that there is a true or false way to organize books in a library. Though, I grant, some make it easier or harder to find certain books in a hurry.

It is either true or false: Did you fall on your head?

@KellyJay said
It is either true or false: Did you fall on your head?

You're the one who thinks there was a talking snake in a garden, not me.

@moonbus said
You're the one who thinks there was a talking snake in a garden, not me.

Yeah, well, if God created the heavens and the earth, a talking snake wouldn’t be such a big deal now, would it, or any other miracle? Your response about the logic of truth, where you claim religion cannot be true or false, is hardly a strong point now, is it? You are saying “A” and “Not A” are the same thing, no matter the snake that is not using your head. If that is how you treat logical consistency, small wonder you think as you do.

@KellyJay said
You do a lot of projections, and you put others down by the way you tell them what they believe and what they mean.

What people believe shows in their actions.

"You shall know them by their fruits."

Jesus did not say, "You will know them by what they say."

People know that their actions condemn them. This is why gaslighting was invented. Of course, some fall for this more heavily than others.

@moonbus said
As you know, I have no quarrel whatever with the way Jesus acted: healing the sick, comforting the desperate, refusing to cast a stone against an accused adulteress, and so on.

My entire quarrel is the with the @kellyjay types who a) put scripture above the Apostles, b) ceaselessly quote scripture at us, c) offer their own personal interpretations of scripture with no sem ...[text shortened]... ling themselves Buddhists. One of my Buddhist friends says I'm a Buddhist, I just don't know it yet.

"For 2,000 years, Christians have been slagging each other off as 'false Christians,' and, as far as I am concerned, that is the true face of Christianity. Why can't they just heal the sick, comfort the desperate, not cast aspersions against others, as Jesus did, and forget about what to call it?

Even Jesus condemned the hypocrites. I'm talking about those who claim they do these things, but actually work more towards exalting themselves for kinda doing those things.

But I see your point, it is like the joke, "Those who think they know everything are really annoying to those of us who do."

But this is the point. These false "Christians", as I call them, are the reasons why some say they do not believe in Christianity. They point to Christians as hypocrites. These are the "Christians" we are faced with. They "talk the talk", they do not "walk the walk", quietly, as Jesus did. But even Jesus lost it on these people, who profited from Judaism, such as the moneychangers on Temple Grounds. Today, he would have similar words for those who profit from Christianity, as groups like Turning Point USA do. He called them out repeatedly in Matthew 23. He called them Pharisees, even though they were/are not actual Pharisees. He was making that point.

The one thing Christianity does not need are those who repel people from Jesus, by claiming they follow him when they do not. You know, "If following Jesus means being like you, then forget it." These are the ones doing damage to the teachings of Jesus by being hypocrites.

@Suzianne said
What people believe shows in their actions.

"You shall know them by their fruits."

Jesus did not say, "You will know them by what they say."

People know that their actions condemn them. This is why gaslighting was invented. Of course, some fall for this more heavily than others.

Yes, except that you insert your ideas about motivation, typically in a way that always pigeonholes someone into the worst possible reasons. Two people may do or not do the same thing, but for different reasons. Two men may not sleep with anyone other than their wives: one because he feels it’s wrong and is loyal to his wife, the other because he thinks he could get caught. We would only know they didn't; their hearts are not something we see. You are forever running people down whom you dislike, proclaiming that they do or say something only because of the foul things you attribute to them. It isn’t fair, and when it happens to you, you also claim it's wrong and not fair.

@KellyJay said
Yes, except that you insert your ideas about motivation, typically in a way that always pigeonholes someone into the worst possible reasons. Two people may do or not do the same thing, but for different reasons. Two men may not sleep with anyone other than their wives: one because he feels it’s wrong and is loyal to his wife, the other because he thinks he could get caught ...[text shortened]... tribute to them. It isn’t fair, and when it happens to you, you also claim it's wrong and not fair.

One more time: "What people believe shows in their actions."

You cannot hide it.

You would rail against Jesus for calling out the hypocrisy of the Temple money changers.

"People you don't like". Indeed. Because they do these things.

@Suzianne said
One more time: "What people believe shows in their actions."

You cannot hide it.

You would rail against Jesus for calling out the hypocrisy of the Temple money changers.

"People you don't like". Indeed. Because they do these things.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks; you reveal what is inside of you by the things you say. You cannot always know why someone does or does not do something, but you are claiming that you have mind-reading abilities? You are forever making connections based solely on what motivates other people to do what they do. Even in your last, you think actions alone can tell you why. Jesus understood the hearts of men; you do not, yet you run them down as if you had Jesus’ insight into those around Him. Check the mirror, Suzianne, you are not Jesus Christ.

@KellyJay said
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks; you reveal what is inside of you by the things you say. You cannot always know why someone does or does not do something, but you are claiming that you have mind-reading abilities? You are forever making connections based solely on what motivates other people to do what they do. Even in your last, you think actions alone ...[text shortened]... you had Jesus’ insight into those around Him. Check the mirror, Suzianne, you are not Jesus Christ.

Hypocrisy often shows itself by attributing to others what you do yourself.

Good job.

@Suzianne said
Hypocrisy often shows itself by attributing to others what you do yourself.

Good job.

Well on that we agree.

@Suzianne said
"For 2,000 years, Christians have been slagging each other off as 'false Christians,' and, as far as I am concerned, that is the true face of Christianity. Why can't they just heal the sick, comfort the desperate, not cast aspersions against others, as Jesus did, and forget about what to call it?

Even Jesus condemned the hypocrites. I'm talking about those ...[text shortened]... ou, then forget it." These are the ones doing damage to the teachings of Jesus by being hypocrites.

To be fair, Christians don't have a monopoly on hypocrisy. But, on the other hand, as Ghost and others have pointed out, no atheists go around trying to convert anyone to atheism the way Christians go about trying to evangelize people. I find it rather importunate to have people come up to me on the street and try to convince me that I should become a Christian, even though they admit, when pressed, that it wouldn't make me a better person, since, as they claim, we are all 'broken' anyway and can only be 'forgiven' but not 'repaired.'

I have known several people pretty high up in the Christian Church and they did not impress me; only their robes did. I spent some time in a Buddhist monastery in Scotland, which, at that time, was run by its founder, Akong Rinpoche, and he impressed the heck out of me.

@moonbus said
To be fair, Christians don't have a monopoly on hypocrisy. But, on the other hand, as Ghost and others have pointed out, no atheists go around trying to convert anyone to atheism the way Christians go about trying to evangelize people. I find it rather importunate to have people come up to me on the street and try to convince me that I should become a Christian, even though t ...[text shortened]... d, which, at that time, was run by its founder, Akong Rinpoche, and he impressed the heck out of me.

I’m not sure what you mean by the 'Christian church' that you could meet someone high up in it. What do you think when a Christian means when we talk about getting saved, saved from what or who?

@KellyJay said
Personally, I think much of what God does and allows is to reveal what we are. A thief will steal given the opportunity, and an adulterer will be unfaithful given the opportunity. So the bad and good things in life reveal what we are, so God doesn’t worry about the material world hardly at all; it is temporal, while we are eternal beings. This world will pass away, and every ...[text shortened]... hose in danger. How we approach life matters, the end matters, and what we put our faith in matters.

I think you might have been overthinking things for the sake of self-gratification.

@Revenant-Eleven said
I think you might have been overthinking things for the sake of self-gratification.

An eternal God makes man in His image and places us in this temporary universe. Would eternal things be more important than temporal ones?