What is reason why Obama does not attend church?

Originally posted by sonship
Though he may display a kind of wisdom about a leader's failings it will have no spiritual benefit. And the mocker is the first person whose spiritual life will be damaged.

Would you like to hear some mocking? Try this, John chapter 10.

…33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS

Now is Jesus saying this to mean that they are equal with God like himself, or was he simply saying this to mock them knowing they don't care about the truth, for their only concern is to attack the truth.

Originally posted by sonship

Someone may react "Oh you just teach that because you like that particular leader." But the New Testament did not address my liking or disliking of one in high position. What it required of me is to offer prayer and petition. And that for the gospel's sake, that the gospel can go forth in a tranquil and peaceful environment if possible.

I am not just addressing a world leader, I'm addressing someone who claims to represent Jesus on earth. Does the Bible not say that judgment comes first in the house of God? Are we to turn a blind eye to those who purport to represent Jesus but don't?

As for world leaders like Hitler who claimed to be a Christian, what are Christians to do when they round people up and exterminate them? Should people speak out? I remember a priest who spoke out during the Holocaust, and he was jailed for it. Another chap from the church came to visit him and he asked him, "How did you wind up in prison? The priest responded, "The question should be, why are you not behind bars with me?"

So I ask you, as world leaders like Obama claim to represent Jesus on earth and also in the same breath support abortion on demand, how are we to react as Christians? If abortion is murder, how is this much different? Should we be like the priest behind bars, or the priest who says nothing and does nothing?

It should be remembered that the church used to persecute Jews throughout Europe with the blessings of the church for centuries, the climax of which was the Holocaust. How do you think God views those who remained silent who were Christians?

I realize the Christians are held to a higher standard. We are not expected to lop off the heads of people who persecute us and who oppress us as we seem Muslims around the world do today. We are not suppose to loot and riot as we see in the world today when we are denied justice and truth, but what of speaking out? I see nothing wrong with it, in fact, I think we are commanded to do so.

Originally posted by sonship
Someone may react "Oh you just teach that because you like that particular leader." But the New Testament did not address my liking or disliking of one in high position. What it required of me is to offer prayer and petition. And that for the gospel's sake, that the gospel can go forth in a tranquil and peaceful environment if possible.

Just out of curiosity, what do you make of this except from the book of Enoch chapter 62?


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1 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said:

Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One.
2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,
And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,
And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,
And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.
3 And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty,
And the exalted and those who hold the earth,
And they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory,
And righteousness is judged before him,
And no lying word is spoken before him.

4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,
[And she has pain in bringing forth]
When her child enters the mouth of the womb,
And she has pain in bringing forth.

5And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.

6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.

7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,
And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,
And revealed him to the elect.

8 And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown,
And all the elect shall stand before him on that day.

9 And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth
Shall fall down before him on their faces,
And worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man,
And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands.

10 Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them
That they shall hastily go forth from His presence,
And their faces shall be filled with shame,
And the darkness grow deeper on their faces.

11 And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment,
To execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His children and His elect
12 And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect:
They shall rejoice over them,
Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them,
And His sword is drunk with their blood.

13 And the righteous and elect shall be saved on that day,
And they shall never thenceforward see the face of the sinners and unrighteous.

14 And the Lord of Spirits will abide over them,
And with that Son of Man shall they eat
And lie down and rise up for ever and ever.

15 And the righteous and elect shall have risen from the earth,
And ceased to be of downcast countenance.
And they shall have been clothed with garments of glory,

16 And these shall be the garments of life from the Lord of Spirits:

And your garments shall not grow old,
Nor your glory pass away before the Lord of Spirits.

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As you well know, the book of Enoch was not included in the canonized version of the Bible even though the book of Jude references it.

I'm thinking this is because men like Constantine, who was not a Christian, took a dim view of Enoch mainly because of passages like this one. There are many more like it.

Originally posted by whodey
So I ask you, what fruits do we know Obama by and why does he evade Christian fellowship?

You claim to be a Christian. What "fruits" are we to know you by? And, in the cases of certain Christians whose political beliefs and actions you disagree with, why do you evade Christian fellowship? Maybe if you answer these questions, it can make the basis for your question seem clearer.

Originally posted by FMF
You claim to be a Christian. What "fruits" are we to know you by? And, in the cases of certain Christians whose political beliefs and actions you disagree with, why do you evade Christian fellowship? Maybe if you answer these questions, it can make the basis for your question seem clearer.

I do seek out Christian fellowship. I do attend church. I have no reason to feign my beliefs and I share my insights here.

It is interesting to me that Jesus did not really attack the lowly sinner, instead, he attacked the leaders of his day. He attacked those who professed to know God and who represented God but only verbally. For you see, they had a reason to feign their beliefs. It was for power and respect and admiration shown by those who were under them.

As for these boards, I've been chewed up and spit out so many times I either like the abuse or I really believe what I say. I have no political office to win, I have no career I'm trying to protect. What troubles me are those that do as they drag the name of God through the mud just as it troubled Jesus in his day.

Originally posted by whodey
Why thank you FMF. But you do realize that most understand this by reading my posts. The fact remains they don't wish to deal with the content of my posts. In short, it's an easy out.

The 'easiest' way out is if you refrain from posting your political views in this forum. We have an entire forum for such views, but you post your political trash talk here.

Originally posted by whodey

I am not just addressing a world leader, I'm addressing someone who claims to represent Jesus on earth. Does the Bible not say that judgment comes first in the house of God? Are we to turn a blind eye to those who purport to represent Jesus but don't?

First Peter 4:17 - "For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; ..."

What is the context of Peter writing this ? Without doubt Peter was teaching the persecuted Christians to view all of their sufferings which were driving them deeper and deeper into depending upon Christ should be considered as God judging the Christian church.

The whole epistle of First Peter could be used to demonstrate this. I consider that you are borrowing the passage for a somewhat different purpose. Peter's intent here is that the Christians' suffering and persecution at the hands of the world is an indication of them being the house of God being purified, made absolute for Christ, tempered in the heat of world rejection, etc. as God indirectly refining their faith.

Verse 12 says "Beloved, do not think that the fiery ordeal among you, coming to you for a trial, is strange, as if it were a strange thing happening to you; But inasmuch as you share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice."

He goes on to say he does not mean suffering for our own stupid errors, sins, naughty living. That is not to be considered suffering on behalf of Christ.

ie. "If you are reproached in the name of Christ, you are blessed, ... For let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler into others' affairs'. but if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, ... For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God ..."

The context you wish to use for the passage seems to have to do with furnishing yourself rationale to voice seething contempt for a political leader who you seem to want to also charge of being the world's Pope.

Please notice that the very same epistle instructs the Christians about spiritually mature attitude towards their government in chapter 2:13-17. This is the very same book.

"Be subject to every human institution for the Lord's sake, whether to a king as being supreme or to a governor as being sent by him for vengence on evildoers and praise of those who do good.

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you would muzzle the ignorance of foolish men;

As free, and yet not having freedom as a covering for evil, but as slaves of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."

This was written under the Imperial Roman Empire. The Roman emperors were no friends of the Christian church at that time.

Peter is not saying all these Roman emperors did was beneficial to the church or even to all mankind, necessarily. But the exhortation leaves no ground for an attitude of insubordination, bitter murmuring, vicious lampooning, or seething contempt cloaked up in Christian garb.

The churches were to be communities as lampstands shining out "the testimony of Jesus" with the righteous lives of her constituents "muzzling" her enemies whose persecution often stemmed from ignorance.

" For it is the will of God, that by doing good you would muzzle the ignorance of foolish men." (2:15)

As for world leaders like Hitler who claimed to be a Christian, what are Christians to do when they round people up and exterminate them?

We are still to display an attitude that shows honor to the concept of government authority. You see you can not agree with the policies of a government without displaying dishonor for the function of authority.

Peter's word "Fear God. Honor the king" may not have been easy for him to write under that kind of Roman imperial kingship. But the Scripture is the inspired oracles of God. And he was faithful to write as God inspired him.

IE. Towards the governors, the kings, the emperors let there be a display of honoring the position and regard for human government, if not agreement with their policies.

Please notice that right after Peter's word to "Fear God. Honor the king" he also writes to the Christians who happen to be household servants -

"Household servants, be subject in all fear to your masters, not only to the good and forbearing but also to the crooked. For this is grace, if anyone, because of a consciousness of God, bears sorrows by suffering unjustly." (vs. 18,19)

We hope for good leaders.
We vote our conscious for good leaders if the system allows that.
We pray for those who are in positions of authority.
Or we participate in the governing body to do what we can ( Like Joseph or Daniel).

There is no ground for the commonplace show of dishonor or disrespect which the worldly ones delight in. Neither Peter nor Paul give an inch for disciples manifesting seething and bitter personal contempt for those in governing authority.

Nero was the emperor of Rome when Paul penned the book of Romans.
Paul was not saying everything Nero did was godly or furthered the purpose of the Christian church.

But Romans 13 shocks us that, even under Nero, an insubordinate contempt for human government should not be seen in Christians.

"Let every person be subject to the authorities over him, for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God. So then he who resists the authority opposes God's ordination, and those who oppose will receive judgment to themselves. For the rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil.

Do you want to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him;

For he is a servant of God to you for good ... etc. etc." (See Romans 13)

Nero had Paul beheaded according to available history.
Nero falsely blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians.
Nero lit up his gardens with Christians burning on torture stakes.

Of course the Apostle Paul was not saying the Roman emperor's policies were all "Christian friendly" or even good for the Roman society. But Paul leaves not an inch for insubordination. The concept of government is God's ordination. The king, the emperor, the tax collector, he says under inspiration, are servants of God.

It is "for conscience sake" Paul says we Christians should have a subordinate attitude towards government -

" Therefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes; for they are God's officers, attending constantly to this very thing." (v.5,6)

As a Christian, I may not like at all, the person/s in government authority. I don't have to. But the spirit coming from my words should betray no contempt for them because that can too easily be viewed as an unworthy disregard for the honorable position of a governor or government officer.

Now when a Ted Cruz or a Jeb Bush become president, you can remind me of all that I wrote here today. Deal?

Originally posted by sonship

I am not just addressing a world leader, I'm addressing someone who claims to represent Jesus on earth. Does the Bible not say that judgment comes first in the house of God? Are we to turn a blind eye to those who purport to represent Jesus but don't?

[b]First Peter 4:17 - "For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; ...[text shortened]... Ted Cruz or a Jeb Bush become president, you can remind me of all that I wrote here today. Deal?

What is your take on Martin Niemoller? This was perhaps his most famous quote. He was a Protestant pastor and social activist.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Was his speaking out and consequential imprisonment sinful?

Originally posted by Suzianne
The 'easiest' way out is if you refrain from posting your political views in this forum. We have an entire forum for such views, but you post your political trash talk here.

If political figures wish to declare spiritual positions then what is good for the goose.....

Originally posted by whodey
What is your take on Martin Niemoller? This was perhaps his most famous quote. He was a Protestant pastor and social activist.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
...[text shortened]... re was no one left to speak out.

Was his speaking out and consequential imprisonment sinful?

So this is your "speaking out" and not remaining silent ?

According to Obama, the reason he does not attend church is that he is too much of a distraction.

Is this the real reason?

Here are some other reasons I can think of.

1. Rev. Wright makes secret house calls.

2. Obama gets bored learning more about himself that he already knows.

3. When praying, none of the church's in Washington face Mecca.

4. He simply does not have the time since "tee time" is around 8 AM.

5. He can't seem to be able to find a church that embraces gay sex, abortion on demand, and pathological lying.

6. Obama grows tired of all the stupid literalists taking the time to read the Bible.

7. When singing psalms, Michelle gets odd looks as she sings a deep base.

8. Obama fears his two daughters may convert to Christianity, which would cause him to be forced into honor killings, but at times secretly wishes his wife would convert to Christianity.

9. God did not contribute any money to his Presidential campaigns.

10. When they pass the offering around the church, none of the money goes to him. The church refuses to pay him his fair share.

This is an example of some prophetic "speaking truth to power" for the kingdom of God?

Okay. But it comes off more as your entertainment. Sounds like you're getting your jollies.

The Lord Jesus did say "Blessed are they that mourn" . And I think He meant not just common sorrow but mourning for the ills and unrighteousness around them in the world.

Your lampoon doesn't come off as speaking truth to power or mourning for the spiritual lack of a president. I imagine a gleeful smirk on your face as if you're tickled with your own cleverness.

Go to the Lord in pray for wisdom how you could minister Christ perhaps to the president. Who knows? An anointed letter urging him to take worship more seriously just might be used by God to speak to him.

You don't have to remain silent. But when you do speak or write the battle is not against flesh and blood. And true spiritual weapons to deal with spiritual influences are effective for God's purposes. Entertainment or human wrath and lampoonish disgust of the natural man are not effective for this spiritual warfare.

James 1:20 - "For the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God."

Originally posted by whodey
He attacked those who professed to know God and who represented God but only verbally. For you see, they had a reason to feign their beliefs.

Why do you suggest Mr Obama "feigns" his beliefs? I get it that you don't agree with his politics, but if you claim he "professes to know God ... only verbally" then the same can be said about you or any Christian here.

Originally posted by sonship
So this is your "speaking out" and not remaining silent ?

[quote] According to Obama, the reason he does not attend church is that he is too much of a distraction.

Is this the real reason?

Here are some other reasons I can think of.

1. Rev. Wright makes secret house calls.

2. Obama gets bored learning more about himself that he already knows ...[text shortened]...

[b]James 1:20 - "For the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God." [/b]

In other works, you only take issue with my approach?

I suppose laughing is what helps me deal with the continual tragedy in the world. I think you will find that there is a great amount of pain and sorrow in laughter, only, it tends to help you cope with them.

Laughter is also a valuable tool for getting a message across. In fact, I don't know of a more effective way to go about it.

Originally posted by FMF
Why do you suggest Mr Obama "feigns" his beliefs? I get it that you don't agree with his politics, but if you claim he "professes to know God ... only verbally" then the same can be said about you or any Christian here.

Sure, and any Christian is free to make such accusations.

And if I get up and help support the mass genocide of the unborn and lie to get legislation passed and target political foes via the IRS and seem to represent illegal aliens more than US citizens and complain about previous wars abroad but then later start some of my own, and call up and congratulate men who leave their wives and families cause they have come out of the closet, and stop going to church and fellowshipping with Christians like God commands then I sure hope someone comes along and gives me a swift kick in the arse.

Originally posted by whodey
Sure, and any Christian is free to make such accusations.

And yet have you not often claimed here that Christians are not to judge one another?

Originally posted by whodey
And if I get up and help support the mass genocide of the unborn and lie to get legislation passed and target political foes via the IRS and seem to represent illegal aliens more than US citizens and complain about previous wars abroad but then later start some of my own, and call up and congratulate men who leave their wives and families cause they have come ...[text shortened]... ns like God commands then I sure hope someone comes along and gives me a swift kick in the arse.

You seem angry with Mr Obama for not going to church.