@chaney3 saidHerei s what Jesus agreed with and also what God revealed to Peter
I don't deny the Trinity, but rather, I try to understand it.
Yet, it's not something that the human mind can comprehend, in my opinion.
I find a need to be correct with "who" exactly I am worshipping, because if the Trinity is wrong, then we're breaking a Commandment by worshipping Jesus instead of "God".
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 16:15-17 KJV)
God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God
Any church that says otherwise or adds to that are liars. If Jesus wanted people to believe that he was God he would have said so clearly. Do yourself a favour and stop eating yourself up about Triniry and other such nonsense that Jesus never said.
@rajk999 saidAs PB1022 has pointed out in above posts, along with others before him, Jesus came very very close to saying things that could be interpreted in a way to claim that He was God.
I really cannot understand why you are allowing these apostate Christian churches mislead and frustrate you. If you want the truth you stay with what Jesus Christ preached. Did Jesus say he was God? NO. End of Story
But you're right, Jesus never said it specifically.
All that does is cause doubts and confusion, which are contradictory to a God who cares if we know Him. You must know someone before you can love them, so this doesn't make sense.
@rajk999 saidApparently the church says this:
Herei s what Jesus agreed with and also what God revealed to Peter
[i]He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 16 ...[text shortened]... lf a favour and stop eating yourself up about Triniry and other such nonsense that Jesus never said.
God and Son of God.....are the same.
@chaney3 saidJesus NEVER said so. Case closed.
As PB1022 has pointed out in above posts, along with others before him, Jesus came very very close to saying things that could be interpreted in a way to claim that He was God.
But you're right, Jesus never said it specifically.
All that does is cause doubts and confusion, which are contradictory to a God who cares if we know Him. You must know someone before you can love them, so this doesn't make sense.
Why not focus on what Jesus did specifically say? Do you realise that these churches try desperately to ignore Jesus and deny what Jesus did preach? All the commandments they try desperately to claim that they are not required. They create their own doctrines and try to convince people to believe those doctrines otherwise they are not a Chrsitian? These churches are not of God. They are false churches and they are to be ignored.
@rajk999 saidYou mean listen only to what Jesus Christ said to masses of people and not individuals, right? Isn’t that your new standard?
Like I said .. what churches say is like the wind blowing and dogs barking ... put them on your ignore list. Listen to Jesus Christ. You will sleep better at night.
I guess what this boils down to is how the Son of God differs (if at all) from God.
But remember Jesus Christ did not correct Thomas when Thomas said, “My Lord and my God.”
Instead, Jesus said, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
So Jesus didn’t correct Peter when Peter called Jesus “the Christ, the Son of the Living God” and Jesus did not correct Thomas when Thomas called Jesus “my Lord and my God.”
And remember Jesus forgave sins during His earthly ministry, which is something only God can do.
“When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.”
(Mark 2:5-11)
And at least one prophecy spoke of Jesus being “from everlasting.”
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
(Micah 5:2)
If Jesus Christ existed eternally (from everlasting,) I fail to see how He’s not God.
But I think these are the only categories in which one can place Jesus: Man, Angel (created being) or God.
Clearly He didn’t identify Himself as a man, so that leaves angel or God.
I’m reminded of a verse in Revelation in which the Apostle John is told (by an Angel) not to worship angels but only to worship God.
Jesus accepts worship.
I think it’s pretty clear Jesus, while he was in the flesh during His earthly ministry, was subservient to God the Father because Hebrews says Jesus was made “a little lower than the angels to taste death for every man.”
So I guess the question is what was Jesus’ status before He came to earth and what is His status after His Resurrection and ascension to Heaven.
@pb1022 saidOne of my favorite stories in the Bible is when the woman in the crowd touched the robe of Jesus, and He demanded to know who. (My favorite because He healed her physically and restored her stature in society, in front of the crowd)
I guess what this boils down to is how the Son of God differs (if at all) from God.
But remember Jesus Christ did not correct Thomas when Thomas said, “My Lord and my God.”
Instead, Jesus said, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
So Jesus didn’t correct Peter when Peter called Jesus “the ...[text shortened]... tatus before He came to earth and what is His status after His Resurrection and ascension to Heaven.
He called her......Daughter.
That detail is important to me.
@chaney3 saidAgree.
One of my favorite stories in the Bible is when the woman in the crowd touched the robe of Jesus, and He demanded to know who. (My favorite because He healed her physically and restored her stature in society, in front of the crowd)
He called her......Daughter.
That detail is important to me.
That’s a beautiful and important detail.
And if my memory’s correct, He healed her on the way to raising Jairus’ 12-year-old daughter from the dead.
Jesus never made a CLEAR statement that He is God. He did make statements that would lead to the assumption that He COULD be God.
It's a frustrating issue, because it seems to be such an important matter of identity.
He was never clear, and that doesn't make sense.
Christ is God yet not merely to be believed in objectively, say as Allah is said to be God in the Quran or even as Yahweh is God in the Torah.
Christ is the Triune God on a journey from eternity into a man so that He may be imparted as God into us.
Arguments about whether Jesus proclaimed Himself to be God often don't move people because they do not see God on this "journey" so to speak, - a "journey" out from Himself in eternity into man. What God is cannot be separated from His will to dispense God into man to be the divine and eternal life uniting God and man.
John 16:13-15 shows this. That is Christ as the embodiment of the Triune God being for the dispensing of God into man.
"But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you. All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:13-15)
All that the Son has is the Father's riches of life and nature.
The Holy Spirit conveys to man all that the Father has which is in the Son into those saved by the Son.
This post tries to show you the dispensing of the Father's riches embodied in the Son and imparted by the Holy Spirit into man.
@pb1022 saidThere is no new standard. There is one and that is Jesus Christ, and I have been saying this for months when this topic of the Gospel was started. If Jesus told someone something privately and never spoke of that publicly then that cannot be part of the Gospel Message and Jesus would not condemn someone for not believing something that HE SPECIFICALLY DID NOT PREACH TO THEM. He will judge on things he did specifically preach to the masses. So people like you would be in dire straits, with your denial of the Gospel of Christ.
You mean listen only to what Jesus Christ said to masses of people and not individuals, right? Isn’t that your new standard?
@rajk999 saidYou’re all over the map, twisting yourself into a pretzel and flipping and flopping like a fish out of water to make sense of your false doctrine.
There is no new standard. There is one and that is Jesus Christ, and I have been saying this for months when this topic of the Gospel was started. If Jesus told someone something privately and never spoke of that publicly then that cannot be part of the Gospel Message and Jesus would not condemn someone for not believing something that HE SPECIFICALLY DID NOT PREACH TO THEM. ...[text shortened]... o the masses. So people like you would be in dire straits, with your denial of the Gospel of Christ.
Here, again, is what Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
(John 3:3-6)
And here is what Jesus said to the Pharisees:
“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
(John 8:23-24)
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
Was Jesus lying in these statements to Nicodemus and the Pharisees?
At some point, you’re gonna have to realize your “me, me, me” doctrine is nonsense.
Your false doctrine has you only believing what Jesus Christ said to masses of people - not what He said to individuals or small groups of people, and not what the Apostles said either.
Come on, amigo. Time to fold your cards, settle your tab and head to bed.
@pb1022 saidWhen the churches are preaching that a man's doctrine is false, and condemns the man, if he believes what Jesus said you know the churches are apostate and there is a total fall away from the truth.
Your false doctrine has you only believing what Jesus Christ said
<<If Jesus told someone something privately and never spoke of that publicly then that cannot be part of the Gospel Message and Jesus would not condemn someone for not believing something that HE SPECIFICALLY DID NOT PREACH TO THEM. He will judge on things he did specifically preach to the masses.>>
Don’t mean to put a pin in another one of your balloons, but you’re not living during the time of Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry.
Jesus’ statements to Nicodemus and the Pharisees are in the Holy Bible for a reason. Because Jesus’ disciples, who spent three years alongside Him and knew Him far better than you, deemed those statements important enough to be in the Gospels.
You can’t claim ignorance of those statements because they weren’t preached to the masses. You’re not in the masses back then. You’re here, present day, with a record of what Jesus said as reported by those closest to Him.
Don’t try the “But I only pay attention to certain red letters” defense. It’s just silly.
@rajk999 saidYou didn’t quote me in full because you’re bearing false witness again.
When the churches are preaching that a man's doctrine is false, and condemns the man, if he believes what Jesus said you know the churches are apostate and there is a total fall away from the truth.
What I said in full was: “Your false doctrine has you only believing what Jesus said *to masses of people - not to individuals or small groups of people.*”
The fact you would intentionally misquote me just shows how desperate and weak your position is.