@pb1022 saidThanks for your questions and being civil. A couple others here seem to not have a handle on that....
So what’s this mean?
“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unt ...[text shortened]... ’t speaking to “masses of people” so I guess, in your view, those words of Jesus don’t count, right?
First it is important to look at the couple other terms or titles that were given to Jesus. But first remember who we pray thru when we pray to God? It is thru Jesus. Prayers are not received or heard by God until they are transmitted thru Jesus. Why is this? What position or title does Jesus have? 1Tim 2:5 says this: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus".
Others referred to him as an ambassador. But the point here is that Jesus is the only go between humans and his Father Jehovah.
What would one do in that position? What does an ambassador do or perform?
First he transmits messages. He also represents his president, king or in the case of Jesus, he represents his Father Jehovah God.
Jehovah did talk to Adam. Even on a daily basis the bible says. But once man sinned that direct communication ended.
But later after Jesus died he became the much needed mediator between humans and his Father. He is not God Almighty but he is a complete representative of him.
If the ones who accepted Jesus as the mediator of Jehovah at that time, didn't, we all would be in a bad situation now. They accepted Jesus's teachings because they knew they were from his Father.
@galveston75 saidI appreciate this post, and thank you for writing it.
Thanks for your questions and being civil. A couple others here seem to not have a handle on that....
First it is important to look at the couple other terms or titles that were given to Jesus. But first remember who we pray thru when we pray to God? It is thru Jesus. Prayers are not received or heard by God until they are transmitted thru Jesus. Why is this? What pos ...[text shortened]... n a bad situation now. They accepted Jesus's teachings because they knew they were from his Father.
Here’s my question: Before Jesus’ birth to the Virgin Mary, before He was “in the flesh,” was He not fully God and equal with God the Father?
Hebrews chapter 2 says Jesus was “made a little lower than the angels” to “taste death for every man.”
So clearly His stature was reduced when He was on earth. But wasn’t He fully God and equal with God the Father before then?
How else to make sense of the Gospel of John, chapter 1?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
(John 1:1)
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
(John 1:14)
And I assume Jesus Christ is still in His Resurrected body today (after His ascension into Heaven,) but I think His Resurrected body, unlike our bodies, is incorruptible and immortal.
Since Jesus is no longer in human flesh and is worshipped by angels in Revelation, I have to figure He is no longer “a little lower than the angels.” But is He fully God again?
It’s interesting to me to ponder these questions, but I don’t know how much they matter in a practical sense.
*In my opinion* Jesus was fully God and equal to God the Father before Jesus’ birth to the Virgin Mary and earthly ministry (I base this on John 1:1,) but that changed during His earthly ministry because He was “in the flesh” (I base this on Hebrews 2:7 and Hebrews 2:9.)
Is Jesus fully God again (after His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven?)
In my opinion, it appears so because He receives worship from angels in Revelation, and God the Father calls His Son “God” in Hebrews 1.
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
(Hebrews 1:8)
But your point about Him being a mediator between God and man appears to be in conflict with what I wrote.
@medullah saidMy dear pub-mate, I don't think we should use that analogy when among Christians who are still deep in the weeds. 😉
I think that you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
@pb1022 saidThanks and thanks for your time here...
I appreciate this post, and thank you for writing it.
Here’s my question: Before Jesus’ birth to the Virgin Mary, before He was “in the flesh,” was He not fully God and equal with God the Father?
Hebrews chapter 2 says Jesus was “made a little lower than the angels” to “taste death for every man.”
So clearly His stature was reduced when He was on earth. But wasn’t He ...[text shortened]... ur point about Him being a mediator between God and man appears to be in conflict with what I wrote.
On your first point I don't see where the Bible says that he was God or equal to him. The Bible says that God or Almighty God has always existed but on the other hand it says Jesus was created.
Your next point does say that Jesus did come to earth and of course died. The bible clearly says that God is from "eternity to eternity". He had "no beginning and he will have no end". Again Jesus had a beginning and did not exist for 3 days while in the grave....... Almighty God cannot die ever.
John 1:1 clearly says that "Jesus was with God" If they were both God or just one being, this terminology would not be used. One contradicts the other. Also Jesus is called the Word or spokesman for his Father Jehovah. And in many societies a being that has special powers either real or fictitious is called a God many time. But Jesus has never been called "Almighty God" That's only is for his Father Jehovah.
And Jesus is now like his Father and all the angels which is an invisible spirit being. He no longer has flesh as the Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven.
Also the Bible clearly says that Jesus is seen sitting at the right hand of his Father. If they were the same God, why are they not sitting in the same throne?
Here are a couple more points to consider... Thanks.
Jesus own words.....
“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus acknowledged that he and his Father are not equals.
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) Jesus did not speak of himself as God but spoke of God as a separate Person.
“I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.” (John 12:49) Jesus’ teachings did not come from him; they came from the Father Jehovah.
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, not Almighty God. If Jesus were God, to whom was he praying while here on earth? It was to his Father. Jesus was under tremendous pressure before his death. He prayed to his Father Jehovah for strength to endure what he knew was coming. He was a man on top of it all and needed to have comfort from his Father, not himself.(Matthew 14:23; 26:26-29)
When two of Jesus’ disciples asked him for special positions in his Kingdom, he answered: “This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20:23) Was Jesus telling them a lie when he stated that he did not have the authority to grant their request? No he didn't because he didn't have that authority but that only God has the authority to make such decisions. Jesus even explained that there were some things that neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32.
Was Jesus lower than God only while he was a man here on earth? No. Even after his death and resurrection, Jesus is described in the Bible as being subordinate to God. The apostle Paul said that “God is supreme over Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3, says that in the future “when all things have been placed under Christ’s rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.”—1 Corinthians 15:28.
Jesus is not God Almighty. That is why he spoke of his Father as “my God.”Revelation 3:2, 12; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.
Well going to bed so that's all for now.......
@kevin-eleven saidThose “long passages of human verbiage” are the Word of God, smart ass.
It's interesting that some here quote long passages of human verbiage at each other, instead of allowing through the unquotable Love, Light, and Peace to which said verbiage presumably refers. 😉
You’ve got nothing better to do than troll Christians? If so, that’s a pathetic life you’re leading.
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@pb1022 saidI'm disappointed that you seem to have turned out to be yet another troll posing as a Christian. They're a dime a dozen these days.
Those “long passages of human verbiage” are the Word of God, smart ass.
You’ve got nothing better to do than troll Christians? If so, that’s a pathetic life you’re leading.
As for me, I get along fine with and feel comfortable in the company of sincere Christians who practice The Way, which is to say: those who allow the Light of Christ to govern their words and actions.
But please don't worry. In the Cosmic Garden of God, if you can't find the right road on your own, that doesn't mean you are completely lost.
@galveston75 saidThank you for your interesting reply.
Thanks and thanks for your time here...
On your first point I don't see where the Bible says that he was God or equal to him. The Bible says that God or Almighty God has always existed but on the other hand it says Jesus was created.
Your next point does say that Jesus did come to earth and of course died. The bible clearly says that God is from "eternity to etern ...[text shortened]... y God.”Revelation 3:2, 12; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.
Well going to bed so that's all for now.......
I may respond on it more tomorrow, but where in the Holy Bible does it say Jesus Christ is a “created being?”
On your second point, did not Jesus say He was the Alpha and Omega?
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
(Revelation 1:8)
Unless I’m mistaken, this is Jesus speaking in Revelation 1:8.
And I think Jesus did indeed exist for the three days his human body was deceased. He was alive in His Spirit, which He had before He took on human flesh.
John 1:1 also says the Word (Jesus) *was God.* That’s not just being with God, that’s *being God.*
Jesus is described as “the Almighty” in Revelation 1:8 quoted above. There may be (likely are) other instances in which Jesus is referred to as the Almighty. After all, He existed before His birth to the Virgin Mary.
Did Jesus’ Resurrected body have flesh and blood? I don’t believe so. But I think it’s a grave mistake to say Jesus Christ is currently on the same level as angels. The book of Revelation makes clear (at least to me) that is not the case. The angels worship Jesus and tell John the Apostle not to worship angels. Jesus receives worship in Revelation.
I don’t think sitting at the right hand of the Father necessarily implies a subservient role.
BTW, do you think the Holy Spirit is God? Where do you think the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus described as “the Comforter,” fits into all this?
I agree that Jesus, while on earth and in human flesh, was not equal with God the Father. That’s clear from Hebrews.
And I think the verse from 1 Corinthians 15:28 can be interpreted differently than you describe it. Here is the verse in the KJV:
“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
(1 Corinthians 15:28)
What do you make of the last part of that verse “that God may be all in all?”
What translation did you quote that says “God will rule completely over all?”
Anyway, thank you for your reply.
We disagree on the question of whether Jesus Christ was a created being. I think it’s clear He wasn’t - not only from the New Testament but from Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament.
@kevin-eleven saidI just don’t suffer fools (or trolls) gladly.
I'm disappointed that you seem to have turned out to be yet another troll posing as a Christian. They're a dime a dozen these days.
As for me, I get along fine with and feel comfortable in the company of sincere Christians who practice The Way, which is to say: those who allow the Light of Christ to govern their words and actions.
But please don't worry. In the Cos ...[text shortened]... den of God, if you can't find the right road on your own, that doesn't mean you are completely lost.
@pb1022 saidHow can such a self-involved jackass, so delighted in himself, even manage to fall asleep at night?
Thank you for your interesting reply.
I may respond on it more tomorrow, but where in the Holy Bible does it say Jesus Christ is a “created being?”
On your second point, did not Jesus say He was the Alpha and Omega?
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
(Revelation 1:8)
...[text shortened]... lear He wasn’t - not only from the New Testament but from Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament.
@kevin-eleven saidSounds like you’re unhappy or angry about something or someone in your life and are trying to take it out on someone you don’t know on the Internet.
How can such a self-involved jackass, so delighted in himself, even manage to fall asleep at night?
Why don’t you deal with what’s upsetting you instead of lashing out at people you don’t know on the Internet? Don’t have the courage? Can only flex your muscles as a keyboard warrior?
Very sad.