@sonship saidWho cares what you said years ago or how many times. A donkey can bray all it likes that does not change what the bible says.
@Rajk999
The Father and the Son are distinct. They are not separate.
I've told you that years ago.
You say "separate and distinct". The Bible shows distinct, but not separate. The Bible shows one lives within the other and vica versa - "coinherance."
The Father is the Father
The Son is the Son
They are separate entities with a separate existence.
Jesus is created being, created by God at some point before the world began.
Living in the other one, or being one, does not mean one entity.
Jesus is living in the believers
Jesus is one with the disciples
They are still separate and distinct entities.
I dont care for your church doctrine so dont carry on as if what you say is some kind of authority.
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@kellyjay saidCool, and that is fine. I dont care for it so I will stick with what the bible says clearly unless you have a reference for your 'three persons one being' comment.
Everything I have said comes out of scriptures, unlike your versions of the gospel of Jesus I give specific scripture to back up what I say.
From gotquestions.org
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son?
The phrase “only begotten Son” occurs in John 3:16, which reads in the King James Version as, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is variously translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten."
It’s this last phrase ("only begotten" used in the KJV, NASB and the NKJV) that causes problems. False teachers have latched onto this phrase to try to prove their false teaching that Jesus Christ isn’t God; i.e., that Jesus isn’t equal in essence to God as the Second Person of the Trinity. They see the word "begotten" and say that Jesus is a created being because only someone who had a beginning in time can be "begotten." What this fails to note is that "begotten" is an English translation of a Greek word. As such, we have to look at the original meaning of the Greek word, not transfer English meanings into the text.
So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham’s "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.
The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God’s Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.
The bottom line is that terms such as "Father" and "Son," descriptive of God and Jesus, are human terms that help us understand the relationship between the different Persons of the Trinity. If you can understand the relationship between a human father and a human son, then you can understand, in part, the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The analogy breaks down if you try to take it too far and teach, as some pseudo-Christian cults (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses), that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father.
https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html
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@PB1022
I'm at work so will answer what I can.....
Jesus was created.....
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He ( Jesus) is the image of the invisible God,a (the firstborn of all creation) 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."
You mentioned the holy spirit. If this is a part of God just as the trinity speaks of, is this part another equal part of the trinity God?
@galveston75 saidThanks for reply and no rush.
@PB1022
I'm at work so will answer what I can.....
Jesus was created.....
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He ( Jesus) is the image of the invisible God,a (the firstborn of all creation) 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or gov ...[text shortened]... is a part of God just as the trinity speaks of, is this part another equal part of the trinity God?
These are the verses in the KJV, which don’t have the word “other” in verse 16.
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
(Colossians 1:15-17)
I think firstborn refers to rank and position and not to chronology. Being the firstborn son of a human father was a big deal back then, much more than it is today and I think it’s that preeminence that firstborn refers to.
And if Jesus Christ were a created being, I think that contradicts verses 16 and 17 in the above quoted passage.
How can He create all things and be before all things if He Himself is created?
And yes, the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity.
@pb1022 saidThat is a fine explanation for those who want to be accepted by that particular church but for others it does not hold water. The bible account in Hebrews makes these points clear
From gotquestions.org
What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son?
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.(Hebrews 1:2-6 KJV)
God made / created the angels
God made / created the Son Jesus
All are created beings
Jesus was made better than the angels and in the image of God
God created the world through the Son
And the Greek word for 'begotton' gennaō ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
No fancy explanation and no twisting is required.
@rajk999 saidCheck out this commentary on those verses and let me know what you think:
That is a fine explanation for those who want to be accepted by that particular church but for others it does not hold water. The bible account in Hebrews makes these points clear
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express im ...[text shortened]... ve, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
No fancy explanation and no twisting is required.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/hebrews-1/
@pb1022 saidWell the word first born means exactly what it means for anything that is the first born of a human or animal etc. I wouldn't say it's a fair thing to do to change the meaning of that word. If the issue with Jesus were a different meaning then a first born that humans understand I'm sure the writers of the Bible would make it clearer with a different word or an explanation.
Thanks for reply and no rush.
These are the verses in the KJV, which don’t have the word “other” in verse 16.
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were ...[text shortened]... d be before all things if He Himself is created?
And yes, the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity.
That's really the big issue with the trinity, no two people ever really agree on what it is. I've had literally hundreds of discussions with ones who believe the trinity and no two, not even one explanation is ever the same. And that goes completely against the Bible where the scripture says that "God is not a God of confusion".
A truth is a truth with no confusion allowed. No gray areas, no interpretations.
A question.... did the Israelite's, or any of God's early followers ever believe in a trinity? If they did the Bible never mentions that. And even today the Jews do not believe in a trinity.
So if the trinity did come along with Jesus , why did he never mention it? Why is their no record of the Jews being shocked or at the least confused about this new teaching?
And the reason for the question about the Holy Spirit being the third equal part of the trinity is should he or it also be given a throne in heaven to sit beside the other two thrones if they are the same and all equal? Where is it? And what is the holy spirits name?
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@pb1022 saidI checked it out, and I have a method of quickly deciding whether that article is a genuinely unbiased article or is it biased and just trying desperately to twist the bible to prove a point. The first test is to see if they took the words of the bible, and changed the meaning or wording, and they did just that.
Check out this commentary on those verses and let me know what you think:
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/hebrews-1/
In my previous post I quoted where Paul said in Hebrews that God made the angels and made Jesus better than the angels. Your article changed those words. They said Jesus became better than the angels. Disingenoulsy and crookedly removed the words made from the KJV.
Plus God said to his Son , .. this day have I begotton thee ... Clearly there was a point when Jesus did not exist and God was alone.
WRONG !!! Get away from me you false teachers SLAM !!!!
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@galveston75 saidI told you this a thousand times and I told robbie this at least a million times.
@PB1022
I'm at work so will answer what I can.....
Jesus was created.....
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He ( Jesus) is the image of the invisible God,a (the firstborn of all creation) 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or gov ...[text shortened]... is a part of God just as the trinity speaks of, is this part another equal part of the trinity God?
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:15-17, KJV
The firstborn of every creature.
"Firstborn" is used two ways in the New Testament. Literally firstborn, as the first offspring, usually of man or beast. Figuratively, as used here, it means pre-eminent, or "surpassing all others." Neither you nor robbie could ever wrap your heads around this, because this forms a central tenet to your made-up faith: that Christ is not God. This verse means that Christ surpasses all creatures, all of creation.
Compare this with the next verse.
You say that "firstborn of every creature" means FIRST BORN. Then compare the usage here with Colossians 1:18.
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
This says it all.
Do you claim that "firstborn of the dead" means FIRST BORN of the dead? So Christ is dead? This flies in the face of every other denomination of Christianity, who ALL claim that Jesus is ALIVE. If you don't mean it this way, then you are all hypocrites with your meaning of Col. 1:15.
Furthermore, Col. 1:18 states: "that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Isn't that exactly what I just said above, that in this case, firstborn means "pre-eminent", or "above all things"? Equally, in Col. 1:18, this means that Christ is "above all the dead", and NOT one of them, as YOU claim. This is also why you don't repeat Col. 1:17, which clearly states: "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Therefore, going back to Col. 1:15, "Firstborn of every creature" means he is "above every creature", and therefore NOT one of them and therefore NOT "part of creation", as YOU claim. This is ingeniously important, as what scripture is saying here is that Christ was born and therefore man, yet pre-eminent, and above man. This is echoed by most Christian denominations who say that yes, Jesus is man, AND God.
Your hand is exposed here, also, by the translation used. In the KJV, it also states: "all things were created by him, and for him:". Your false translation changes the words of the Holy Bible to "All other things have been created through him and for him". In your already made dogma (created well before your Bible), Jesus is not God, and was not with God, as clearly stated in John 1:1, which in your Bible is changed (one more sin) to make Jesus less than God.
How much time will go by now, before I have to bring this up to you, yet again?
@suzianne saidHere is a great illustration of how churches have removed the brains of their sycophant congregation.
In your already made dogma (created well before your Bible), Jesus is not God, and was not with God, as clearly stated in John 1:1, which in your Bible is changed (one more sin) to make Jesus less than God.
Jesus says clearly that God is greater that He is.
Paul said the head of Christ is God.
Yet these fools continue to mindlessly regurgitate the doctrine of the church, and now claiming that saying Jesus is less than God is a sin.
@suzianne saidThanks for your input.
I told you this a thousand times and I told robbie this at least a million times.
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
...[text shortened]... od.
How much time will go by now, before I have to bring this up to you, yet again?
Let me simplify this if I can.
Jesus was the 1st of all that was created. But make this clear that Jesus was not the first in existence because that was his Father Jehovah who was not a creation. He has always existed.
After Jesus was created the angels were then created and all of them had a lower standing before Jehovah. Only Jesus, the first born, was given a higher rank or standing above all of the angels.
Next all that was created, the universe including the earth and all life forms on it were created with which Jesus had a major role in this. This was a privilege that he was given by his Father Jehovah. This is why the scriptures state that he was in existence before all other things were created and in fact was involved in that.
It is really that simple. The trinity has made it so confusing and dark and mysterious that no one can truly explain it. That is not God's way of teaching us humans about him, his son, his Kingdom and with his dealings with us in the future.
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@galveston75 saidHear the other one ... the universe is 6000 yrs old.... really !
Thanks for your input.
Let me simplify this if I can.
Jesus was the 1st of all that was created. But make this clear that Jesus was not the first in existence because that was his Father Jehovah who was not a creation. He has always existed.
After Jesus was created the angels were then created and all of them had a lower standing before Jehovah. Only Jesus, t ...[text shortened]... y of teaching us humans about him, his son, his Kingdom and with his dealings with us in the future.
@galveston75 saidIt is TRUE that the Trinity is very, very confusing. Where in the Bible does it say that God will teach us without confusion?
Thanks for your input.
Let me simplify this if I can.
Jesus was the 1st of all that was created. But make this clear that Jesus was not the first in existence because that was his Father Jehovah who was not a creation. He has always existed.
After Jesus was created the angels were then created and all of them had a lower standing before Jehovah. Only Jesus, t ...[text shortened]... y of teaching us humans about him, his son, his Kingdom and with his dealings with us in the future.
(Remember, Jesus taught in parables)