Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps if a group of Sodomites surrounded your house and demanded that you come out so that they may "know you", if you know what I mean, as they did in Sodom, then you may feel differently about the justice of their fate. Then again you may be into group rape, I can't really say for sure.
Whodey,
Genesis 18:16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to set them on their way.
17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
18 seeing that Abraham shall become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 No, for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
20 Then the LORD said, "How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin!
21 I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me; and if not, I will know."
22 So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
23 Then Abraham came near and said, "
Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will you then sweep away the place and not forgive it for the fifty righteous who are in it?
25
Far be it from you to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"
26 And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city,
I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
27 Abraham answered, "Let me take it upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes.
28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."
29 Again he spoke to him, "Suppose forty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of forty I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "Oh do not let the Lord be angry if I speak. Suppose thirty are found there." He answered, "I will not do it, if I find thirty there."
31 He said, "Let me take it upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "Oh do not let the Lord be angry if I speak just once more. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."
33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham;
and Abraham returned to his place.
_____________________________
Without revisiting all my old arguments about Jewish hermeneutics in general being much more open than Christian hermeneutics tends to be, there are some interesting features of this story, that I’ll just offer in outline—
(1) Note that Abraham is willing to argue with God, without even being asked his opinion—and even to lecture God on justice! “Far be it from you...!” Abraham fairly thunders at his God. This may seem alien to many Christians, but in Judaism it is not. You are expected to make your argument, even against God; argument “for the sake of heaven” (i.e., for the sake of truth and justice) is a sacred act. Traditional Jewish Torah study itself takes the form of argument.
(2) God implicitly accepts Abraham’s argument, and trumps him: “If I find in Sodom some fifty righteous men, I will spare everyone for their sake.” Now the negotiations begin... They get down to 10, which appears to be God’s final offer, for he was finished speaking to Abraham and went on his way.
One commentator (I think it was in the Talmud, but I can’t recall for sure) proposed that Abraham thought there were at least 10 good people in the city,
including Lot and his family!
Now, Gen. 19:3 indicates that everyone in Sodom, “to the last man” were their to rape Lot’s guests. So maybe there weren’t 10...?
(3) In an interesting, and perhaps poignant, commentary, Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel interprets the phrase in verse 33,
v’avrahim shab le’m’komo as
“And Abraham is still standing there!”—in his place (
makom). For Abraham, the argument is not over...
Now, I am
not going to lobby for any particular reading of this story—and, for me, that is what there are:
stories. But what I am trying to point out—the
only thing I’m trying to point out— is that, in the Hebrew tradition, it is not unthinkable to challenge God, in fact a
tzaddik, a righteous person, may be required to do so...
And from that perspective, though I do not claim to be a
tzaddik, but only a
benoni, I will not try to bend any of these stories to make what seems to me unjust (e.g., genocide) just, simply because it comes from God’s action or God’s command...
See my related post on froggy’s “Joshua” thread:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=48280&page=3