Why are Christians under attack ?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Christians only attack in this forum as a self-defense after feeling persecuted as I described in my post.

That may be true for you, but I don't think it is the case for all Christians.
I also think your excuse for your behaviour is pretty week. I mean how do you know that the atheists here are not just reacting to the Christians that got here before you? Maybe this forum has been fermenting self-defence warfare ever since the first ugly post that was made ten years ago by someone who was nether atheist or theist? Maybe it started from a typo or misunderstanding?
I just don't think two wrongs make a right and your over compensation for perceived attacks is not the best behaviour.

Christians feel more under attack because they attack each other. Christians have a tendency to suspect other Christians of not being real believers, not having the correct world view on science, history, education, society, other christian groups like for example catholicism (the "OH! BEWARE-of-pope-Francis!" kind of thing) or the mormon faith etc; in America Christians are expected to vote republican if they are indeed real, true Christians etc. This forum is full hate text written by Christians. It doesn't look very "Christ-like" to me - isn't that the meaning of the word "Christian"?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Christians only attack in this fotum as self-defense

I was ready to meet on common ground, but when attacked relentlessly, I responded

Pure B.S. You attacked me with zero provocation when I posted that hypothetical about God being disproved. Your post is the height of hypocrisy.

On top of this, what happened to turning the other cheek or showing humility and kindness? That's another problem with Christians: they frequent pick and choose what to follow, yet can't understand why non-theists regard them as hypocrites. Furthermore, Christians often cherry-pick the lesser doctrines (like regarding gays as evil-doers) while ignoring the more important doctrines of love, kindness, humility, etc.

However, I would like to acknowledge people like Sonship, who very regularly embodies these traits. Grandpa Bobby also. Though non-Christians here may disagree with you, you at least seem to represent your faith well.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, vistesd, I, personally, am glad that you have found a religion that you can become interested in to this degree. I wish you well in your discovery. 🙂

Thank you. Sincerely.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I agree that there is a whole range with grey areas at the edges. In fact, Jews in particular demonstrate this nicely. There are Jews who are Jews more by culture or descent than by belief. And for this reason I would not say that being Jewish makes you a member of a religion. I would want to separate Judaism (the religion) from being Jewish. But even Jud ...[text shortened]... religion, have some cherished beliefs that they do not take to kindly to being criticised about.

Only two caveats:

(1) I am no more interested in defining who the "True Jews™” are than who the “True Christians™” are—and although there is some of that in Judaism (notably from the haredim—“ultra-orthodox—wing), it seems to be mostly based on praxis (i.e., how “observant” one is vis-à-vis the mitzvot). Outside that wing, there seems to be broad inclusion (on the religious front) about being a Jew.

—I think you and I are on the same side in the “Who is a True ______________™” issue (and all "No True Scotsman" claims), so this is not a criticism of your post. And Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner once cogently noted that “Judaism” Judea-Galilee in the first century C.E. was best characterized by the plural: Judaisms. So, I think you are on point here. I will only say that, for me, broadly, when I use the term I mean “the religion of the dual Torah”.

(2) You’re likely right about “most people” in religions having “cherished beliefs that they do not take to kindly to being criticised about.” The question for me is: am I willing to be convinced by reason and evidence that those beliefs must be wrong? If the answer is a blanket “No!”, then I become a dogmatist. That is not to say that I might not be a tough sell, stubborn even. (But you already know the extent to which I embrace story, myth, poetry, etc. as foundational for what I would call the “religious [or “spiritual” if one prefers] experience. That does not stem from a cynical strategy of deflection from the questions, but I suppose it does serve as a deflection of sorts. It's just that that's where I inhabit religion generally. My "propositional" beliefs have to do with my longstanding non-dualism, with which you are well familiar.)

I really do not want to put myself in the position of “apologist for Judaism”—and wouldn’t even if I decided to convert. I am, in a way, only sharing ideas and experiences that resonate with me. In that vein, my wife once attended a kind of “mock seder” put on by the local synagogue for the church that she was a member of. The program was handled by a small group of Jewish youth—high school age as I recall. They fielded a bunch of questions from the parishioners—apparently with some creativity—until one parishioner asked something like: “Where do you get this stuff?” [I think it was asked as a serious question, not as “flip” as I’m making it sound.] The answer: “We’re taught to question everything.” Everything? Who knows what their frame of reference was/is?

Originally posted by twhitehead
That may be true for you, but I don't think it is the case for all Christians.
I also think your excuse for your behaviour is pretty week. I mean how do you know that the atheists here are not just reacting to the Christians that got here before you? Maybe this forum has been fermenting self-defence warfare ever since the first ugly post that was made te ...[text shortened]... wrongs make a right and your over compensation for perceived attacks is not the best behaviour.

All I know is when I first showed up here I was fairly rabid about atheists and yeah, I was a newbie and yeah, I taunted them with visions of end times and I got roundly schooled for doing that, by atheists and others.

Well, you want to talk about best behavior? How do you feel about Googlefudge's stance that I outlined?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I'm an atheist, but i'm not an 'unbeliever'.

Okay, i don't happen to believe in the big guy (no insult intended) but there are many things in this world that i do believe in. I believe in human kindness and justice, i believe in family and friends. I don't need to have a religion to believe in these things. To wear the label 'unbeliever' implies that, as an atheist, i lack the ability to have faith in something, which simply isn't the case.

Well, faith "in something" is something, I guess.

Would you prefer "non-believer"?

Originally posted by Flower04
Christians feel more under attack because they attack each other. Christians have a tendency to suspect other Christians of not being real believers, not having the correct world view on science, history, education, society, other christian groups like for example catholicism (the "OH! BEWARE-of-pope-Francis!" kind of thing) or the mormon faith etc; in Amer ...[text shortened]... ians. It doesn't look very "Christ-like" to me - isn't that the meaning of the word "Christian"?

You've been reading Robbie's drivel, haven't you?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, faith "in something" is something, I guess.

Would you prefer "non-believer"?

Can we agree on 'existential traveler?'

Originally posted by vivify
Pure B.S. You attacked me with zero provocation when I posted that hypothetical about God being disproved. Your post is the height of hypocrisy.

On top of this, what happened to turning the other cheek or showing humility and kindness? That's another problem with Christians: they frequent pick and choose what to follow, yet can't understand why non-th ...[text shortened]... hough non-Christians here may disagree with you, you at least seem to represent your faith well.

The idea of "turning the other cheek" is not meant to let others beat you to a pulp and never fight back to defend ones body or beliefs as many seem to think.

Originally posted by vivify
Pure B.S. You attacked me with zero provocation when I posted that hypothetical about God being disproved. Your post is the height of hypocrisy.

On top of this, what happened to turning the other cheek or showing humility and kindness? That's another problem with Christians: they frequent pick and choose what to follow, yet can't understand why non-th ...[text shortened]... hough non-Christians here may disagree with you, you at least seem to represent your faith well.

And yet nothing I wrote in this thread even got through to you, did it? And you guys wonder why we don't "discuss things calmly" with you guys. Because you just blow over it with a big bulldozer.

"That's another problem with Christians:"

How would you feel if I said this about atheists? Are all atheists the same?

Why don't you just ask posters like FMF exactly what happens when Christians post with "humility and kindness"? If he's telling the truth that day, he'll say something like "Feeding time!!"

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Can we agree on 'existential traveler?'

Well, you know what Jesus said?

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

I can buy that description for you. Some other atheists here, not so much.

Hi Suzi, thanks for weighing in. I knew you couldn't resist this one. I do appreciate what it is to suffer a dark night (or decade) of the soul, to search for an answer to the question whether one's life or existence in general makes any sense or serves any purpose beyond quotidian details.

I also appreciate that a modern thinking Christian has a more complicated task than a medeaval Christian. For both, there is the difficulty of opening oneself to the message (of sin and redemption) and then to preparing oneself to receive grace. This is an arduous spiritual endeavor. In addition, a modern thinking Christian must somehow reconcile all that is written in the Bible with what we know of natural laws and the physical world. A medeaval Christian in the age of blind faith could accept the Bible in its entirity as literal fact; a modern Christian must figure out which bits of the Bible are to be accepted as literal fact and which bits are to be understood as allegory or a morality lesson or as mysticism. Conflating the various modes into the literal-factual requires mental contortions which border on mania (you know who I mean). It is no easy task to navigate the plethora of possible interpretations of biblical text, and, in my opinion, the Church is the main hindrance to finding God. I do not envy you your task.

I respect anyone who is earnestly engaged in searching for answers, an "existential traveller", though I myself do not find that the vocabulary of sin and redemption speaks to my condition.

The ones who deservedly draw the fire and ire of atheists are those who give every impression of believing themselves to have arrived at the end of the spiritual journey, who claim to have all the answers already. This smacks of a lack of humility unbecoming of a confessed sinner.

Originally posted by Flower04
Christians feel more under attack because they attack each other. Christians have a tendency to suspect other Christians of not being real believers, not having the correct world view on science, history, education, society, other christian groups like for example catholicism (the "OH! BEWARE-of-pope-Francis!" kind of thing) or the mormon faith etc; in Amer ...[text shortened]... ians. It doesn't look very "Christ-like" to me - isn't that the meaning of the word "Christian"?

The intent is not really to attack other Christians, but to inform, so the brothers are not ignorant of the truth, and to correct against false doctrines of demons just as the apostle Paul did in the following examples:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

(Romans 11:25 NASB)

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 NASB)

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

(1 Timothy 4:1-3 NASB)

Originally posted by Suzianne


Why don't you just ask posters like FMF exactly what happens when Christians post with "humility and kindness"? If he's telling the truth that day, he'll say something like "Feeding time!!"

So what then, screw the bible and do it your way? What really gets accomplished for your cause when you react like children because others are acting childish?

Understand that I don't confuse "kindness" with being a punching bag. MLK was very vocal and strong when addressing issues of race. Can you imagine MLK using slurs in response to those who attacked, insulted or hosed those marching peacefully?

You claim to believe in something greater than you. Act like it.