25 Aug 22
Why are things believed?
Proposed answers: not because they are true, but because
a) they seem to someone to be true, or
b) they seem to someone to explain some complex or mysterious phenonemon better than an alternative hypothesis, or
c) they seem to someone to be consistent with or logically implied by something else which seems to be true, or
d) some putative authority figure says they are true.
<>Discuss.
25 Aug 22
@moonbus saidI think "seem" is the operative word.
Why are things believed?
Proposed answers: not because they are true, but because
a) they seem to someone to be true, or
b) they seem to someone to explain some complex or mysterious phenonemon better than an alternative hypothesis, or
c) they seem to someone to be consistent with or logically implied by something else which seems to be true, or
d) some putative authority figure says they are true.
<>Discuss.
The word "know" gets used incorrectly with regard to these matters.
My well-thumbed analysis is that we REALIZE that we believe in supernatural things rather than DECIDE to.
I think that ~ after all is said and done with the relevant scriptures and the doctrines ~ we believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
25 Aug 22
1 edit
@fmf saidI have often observed among the people I know who believe in supernatural things, that the reasons they cite for their beliefs are not the reasons which explain how they came to believe in the first place. The reasons people give later are all rationalizations, not part of the causitive process of coming to believe. By the time someone comes to realize that he believes in something supernatural, all the really interesting psychological processes have already happened and subsided below the conscious level.
I think "seem" is the operative word.
The word "know" gets used incorrectly with regard to these matters.
My well-thumbed analysis is that we REALIZE that we believe in supernatural things rather than DECIDE to.
I think that ~ after all is said and done with the relevant scriptures and the doctrines ~ we believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
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25 Aug 22
@moonbus saidI think it’s complex but certainly some of your categories come into play at least to some extent. A mix of factors which changes over time as you have said in your second post.
Why are things believed?
Proposed answers: not because they are true, but because
a) they seem to someone to be true, or
b) they seem to someone to explain some complex or mysterious phenonemon better than an alternative hypothesis, or
c) they seem to someone to be consistent with or logically implied by something else which seems to be true, or
d) some putative authority figure says they are true.
<>Discuss.
I wonder if a misuse of Occam’s Razor could be a subtext to your points a) and b) and d)
For examples:
The universe and creations are vastly complex and it seems impossible for mankind to determine how life started… therefore the most simplest explanation is probably correct I.e. God did it and God is mysterious his ways incomprehensible to us so that explains why we can’t figure it out. It’s kind of obvious… PLUS it is written by a “putative” authority figure in his book so that confirms it.
25 Aug 22
@divegeester
or e) because it gives people peace of mind in the face of mystery or fear (especially fear of death).
25 Aug 22
@moonbus saidOr it gives some people's lives meaning when they feel that the meaning they can find [on their own bat] in the exercise of their capacities and their interactions is somehow not enough for them.
e) because it gives people peace of mind in the face of mystery or fear (especially fear of death).
25 Aug 22
@moonbus saidd) some putative authority figure says they are true.
Why are things believed?
Proposed answers: not because they are true, but because
a) they seem to someone to be true, or
b) they seem to someone to explain some complex or mysterious phenonemon better than an alternative hypothesis, or
c) they seem to someone to be consistent with or logically implied by something else which seems to be true, or
d) some putative authority figure says they are true.
<>Discuss.
Amend to "putative authority figure that you respect and trust"
The rest are borderline irrelevant.
25 Aug 22
@sh76 saidA putative authority figure one dis-respects and dis-trusts -- you mean like Donald Trump or the Pope? Yes, I can see the point.
d) some putative authority figure says they are true.
Amend to "putative authority figure that you respect and trust"
The rest are borderline irrelevant.
The others are not irrelevant to someone inclined to believe something for which putative authority figures are either lacking or too numerous to mention.
@fmf saidThe people in this forum have always misused the word "realize".
I think "seem" is the operative word.
The word "know" gets used incorrectly with regard to these matters.
My well-thumbed analysis is that we REALIZE that we believe in supernatural things rather than DECIDE to.
I think that ~ after all is said and done with the relevant scriptures and the doctrines ~ we believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
realize, verb
1. become fully aware of (something) as a fact; understand clearly.
2. cause (something desired or anticipated) to happen.
3. give actual or physical form to.
4. make (money or a profit) from a transaction.
All of these mean to make (something) real. Real, as opposed to fictional. You cannot realize something that is not true.
"She realized one day that the entire government of her country were aliens from the planet Qwerty", is not a proper use of the word "realize". "Realizing" something is not the result of a "gut feeling". You may suspect or surmise something, but to come to a "realization" of something is "to become aware of it as a fact". Believing something is true is not realizing it is true. You can believe a false statement, but you cannot realize it.
@fmf saidWe believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
I think "seem" is the operative word.
The word "know" gets used incorrectly with regard to these matters.
My well-thumbed analysis is that we REALIZE that we believe in supernatural things rather than DECIDE to.
I think that ~ after all is said and done with the relevant scriptures and the doctrines ~ we believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
I suggest to you it's more than a gut feeling. We believe because this feeling was given to us by a higher power. Please consider:
Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. Romans 2:14-15 NLT
25 Aug 22
@fmf saidC.S. Pearce argued that people don’t seek truth; they seek certainty, freedom from doubt. Another possible motive for belief in supernatural causation.
Or it gives some people's lives meaning when they feel that the meaning they can find [on their own bat] in the exercise of their capacities and their interactions is somehow not enough for them.
25 Aug 22
2 edits
@fmf saidThat is exactly the sort of belief one comes to recognize makes up the furniture of one’s mind, though one did not consciously put it there; one comes to the realization that one has this sort of belief, one doesn’t choose it. It’s what I call an implicit belief, contrasted with an explicit one. I have noticed that when you challenge people’s implicit beliefs, you get quite a different response than when you challenge their carefully deliberated explicit ones.
f) A set of assumptions absorbed from family, friends, preachers, teachers and neighbours [and parts of the media] when young and never really questioned or examined.
25 Aug 22
2 edits
@mchill saidWhat you’re talking about are mores. The customs of your tribe or society. It occurred to some Hebrews and Babylonians and Greeks and others to write them down at some point in the distant past, and they were delivered to us as if from a higher power. Transcendental ventriloquism.
We believe because of a gut feeling rather than logic.
I suggest to you it's more than a gut feeling. We believe because this feeling was given to us by a higher power. Please consider:
Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written i ...[text shortened]... own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. Romans 2:14-15 NLT
The question here is, how do people come to believe that? What is the psychological process, what is the operative motive? I think fmf has answered that question. We come to believe that the same way we learn a language and table manners and nursery rhymes and which side of the road to drive on.