It is interesting that many Christians here either run away or resort to deflection when pitched with questions like this:
Is it necessary to accept the bible as being completely trustworthy in all aspects in order to be a Christian, to be “saved”?
Sonship you have said that you were “growing in the faith” and eventually came to accept the bible as being completely trustworthy, why are you know avoiding discussing this topic?
Originally posted by @js357I was brought up to accept without question that the bible is unerringly accurate, factual and 100% all the actual inspired word of God.
When you came to rely on the Bible as trustworthy, did you see it as trustworthy in all aspects of knowledge and guidance, or did you see it as trustworthy in some but not all of them? In other words, was part of your transition a process of learning what the Bible is meant and is not meant to be?
However, since then I have struggled with some aspects of it and yet I retain my faith. In a way a bit like sonships stated experience on page 1 but in reverse. As I have grown in the faith I have come to be uncertain of the complete trustworthiness (to use sonship’s phase) of some elements.
I am more than happy to openly, honestly and directly discuss this phenomena and eventually also discuss the parts/elements/accounts of the bible I am referring too. However for the time being I think we should stick to the phenomena itself, the notion and if we like, the principle, that it is possible to be a genuine Christian and not feel able to accept all of the bible as being completely trustworthy.
What is happening in this thread, in my opinion, is that posters such as sonship (especially and definitely) but also KellyJay to some extent, are acknowledging this principle but subsequently backing away from their initial honesty as they realise the debate consequences of admitting to such a notion.
I am happy to discuss whatever I am asked about my beliefs, but I expect those asking to reciprocate.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterMy bolding below:
I am more than happy to openly, honestly and directly discuss this phenomena and eventually also discuss the parts/elements/accounts of the bible I am referring too. However for the time being I think we should stick to the phenomena itself, the notion and if we like, the principle, that it is possible to be a genuine Christian and not feel able to accept all of the bible as being completely trustworthy.
What is happening in this thread, in my opinion, is that posters such as sonship (especially and definitely) but also KellyJay to some extent, are acknowledging this principle but subsequently backing away from their initial honesty as they realise the debate consequences of admitting to such a notion.
Please explain to me how ANYTHING I have written in this thread is a backpeddling, reconsidering, backtracking from, RETHINKING OF, or retraction FROM my repeated emphasis of Romans 10:9 as a great place to begin in being assured one is saved ?
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
Please tell me how any kind of growing or deepening of trust in the Bible as God's word, is my back-peddle or backing away on years of recommending this passage.
If I say I grew in confidence in Scripture or someone else also could, HOW is that backing AWAY on receiving salvation according to Romans 10:9.
( IF I understand your post correctly)
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Originally posted by @divegeesterHow on earth would you expect anyone to believe that your faith has grown the more you started doubting the trustworthiness of scripture? 🙄
I was brought up to accept without question that the bible is unerringly accurate, factual and 100% all the actual inspired word of God.
However, since then I have struggled with some aspects of it and yet I retain my faith. In a way a bit like sonships stated experience on page 1 but in reverse. As I have grown in the faith I have come to be uncert ...[text shortened]... happy to discuss whatever I am asked about my beliefs, but I expect those asking to reciprocate.
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerPerhaps you missed Dive's post? Here it is again:
How on earth would you expect anyone to believe that your faith has grown the more you started doubting the trustworthiness of scripture? 🙄
Daniel, I will tell you this once more and not again.
I am not interested in you, dj2becker, fetchmyjunk or Romans1009. I’m not interested in your posts, your opinions or any of your repetitive idiocy. I will not be engaging with you as you are a juvenile lying troll.
I trust that is clear, but if not, tough.
Originally posted by @divegeesterBacking away from honesty? Vile thing to say, and untrue!
I was brought up to accept without question that the bible is unerringly accurate, factual and 100% all the actual inspired word of God.
However, since then I have struggled with some aspects of it and yet I retain my faith. In a way a bit like sonships stated experience on page 1 but in reverse. As I have grown in the faith I have come to be uncert ...[text shortened]... happy to discuss whatever I am asked about my beliefs, but I expect those asking to reciprocate.
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I have re-read this to make sure I understand DIvegeester.
However for the time being I think we should stick to the phenomena itself, the notion and if we like, the principle, that it is possible to be a genuine Christian and not feel able to accept all of the bible as being completely trustworthy.
What is happening in this thread, in my opinion, is that posters such as sonship (especially and definitely) but also KellyJay to some extent, are acknowledging this principle but subsequently backing away from their initial honesty as they realise the debate consequences of admitting to such a notion.
1.) The principle seems to mean a man may receive Christ as salvation with an incomplete confidence in all of Scripture.
2.) Somehow, something makes Divegeester think I am BACKING AWAY from that principle.
What have I written that is a BACKING AWAY from that principle ?
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02 Jul 18
5 edits
When I first asked Jesus to take me, the next few weeks I did not want to read the Bible. I wanted to read sophisticated theology ABOUT the Christian faith. The first book I began to read was Rienhold Neibur's book The Nature and Destiny of Man.
And here is why. I had lost FACE by being subdued by Jesus. To salvage some intelletual pride (I guess) I was going not to the Bible but to heavy duty theology / philosophy. But you see I didn't have enough grounding in the Bible to have the faintest idea of what the learned theologian was lecturing me about.
The ONLY memorable parts of my reading were his QUOTATIONS of the New Testament. For example I distinctly remember that he ended the book by quoting Romans 8:37-39 about nothing being able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Now I wasn't too clear that he was in fact quoting Paul's letter of Romans. But in the midst of much complex theological and philosophical discussion These few sentences seem to mean something to me.
I did not understand that book then. And then the Holy Spirit touched me in an inaudible speaking to my heart -
"You humbled yourself to call on the name of Jesus.
Why don't you also humble yourself to read the book, the Bible?"
So I began to read a loose paraphrase popular NT publication called Good News For Modern Man. That was the beginning of a great adventure.
I still was filled with doubts about the Old Testament. But as I read about what Jesus taught His integrity captured me. And I decided that HE seemed to take the Old Testament seriously. I thought "If it is good enough for Jesus it must be OK."
This was a gradual acceptance of the whole Bible. I don't encourage anyone HAS to have a similar experience. But I understand how someone could be in a similar process.
NOW if I were to go back and read Reinhold Niebur's book, I am sure I would have no problem being conversant as to what he was saying in every chapter. But I still want to FIRST nourish my faith and my spirit on the Bible's words.
From Wiki - ( just a little about the fellow)
Reinhold Niebuhr Reinhold niebuhr.jpg
Born Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuhr June 21, 1892
...
Minister (1915–28)
Professor (1928–60)
Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuhr (/ˈraɪnhoʊld ˈniːbʊər/; June 21, 1892 – June 1, 1971) was an American theologian, ethicist, commentator on politics and public affairs, and professor at Union Theological Seminary for more than 30 years. Niebuhr was one of America's leading public intellectuals for several decades of the 20th century and received the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1964. A public theologian, he wrote and spoke frequently about the intersection of religion, politics, and public policy, with his most influential books including Moral Man and Immoral Society and The Nature and Destiny of Man, the second of which Modern Library ranked one of the top 20 nonfiction books of the twentieth century.[1]
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSorry sir, you lost me at, 'And then the Holy Spirit touched me in an inaudible speaking to my heart.'
When I first asked Jesus to take me, the next few weeks I did not want to read the Bible. I wanted to read sophisticated theology ABOUT the Christian faith. The first book I began to read was Rienhold Neibur's book [b]The Nature and Destiny of Man.
And here is why. I had lost FACE by being subdued by Jesus. To salvage some intelletual pride (I gue ...[text shortened]... Modern Library ranked one of the top 20 nonfiction books of the twentieth century.[1] [/quote][/b]
Care to elaborate?
Originally posted by @kellyjaySonship claims that he was growing in the faith before he finally came to accept the trustworthiness of the entire bible. I for one believe him.
Backing away from honesty? Vile thing to say, and untrue!
Do you believe it is possible to be a Christian, to be saved, while still not accepting the trustworthiness of the entire bible?
Yes or no to start your reply please.
My response is a categorical and unequivocal “yes” it is possible.
Over to you.
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @sonshipPerhaps you are not, I hope not as your honesty on page one was welcomed by me.
I have re-read this to make sure I understand DIvegeester.
[quote] However for the time being I think we should stick to the phenomena itself, the notion and if we like, the principle, that it is possible to be a genuine Christian and not feel able to accept all of the bible as being completely trustworthy.
What is happening in this thread, in my opi ...[text shortened]... G AWAY from that principle.
What have I written that is a BACKING AWAY from that principle ?
I’m on a flight and can’t get to read your other post until sometime tomorrow. Sorry.
It’s 23:30 where I am now and it’s a few hours flight then sleep.
I will get back to it though I promise
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterThe point I was making was that it depends on what parts you are rejecting/questioning! The number of times a roster crowed is one thing, while having to have Jesus Christ as Lord and savior is another. Painting me as dishonest because I didn’t want to just give a yes or no answer to a possible wide interpretation of your question was despicable.
Sonship claims that he was growing in the faith before he finally came to accept the trustworthiness of the entire bible. I for one believe him.
Do you believe it is possible to be a Christian, to be saved, while still not accepting the trustworthiness of the entire bible?
Yes or no to start your reply please.
My response is a categorical and unequivocal “yes” it is possible.
Over to you.
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02 Jul 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeGod speaks to us by means of His Holy Word and the Holy Spirit.
Sorry sir, you lost me at, 'And then the Holy Spirit touched me in an inaudible speaking to my heart.'
Care to elaborate?
Often times His speaking is like a still small voice in our conscience. We may think it is just ourselves thinking. He blends in with us. He is gentle and not intrusive.
One of the symbols of the Holy Spirit is a dove in the Bible.
A dove is a gentle animal. In fact it could be easily shewed away. The dove is also single eyed.
By experience you LEARN the speaking of the Holy Spirit. Like learning to play good chess so you have to learn the skill of discerning the Holy Spirit.
(Now no doubt some one will chime in "Hey Sonship, were you listening to the Holy Spirit the other day when you chewed me out ?? )
Or some other Gotcha! question on this work of progress.
I am still learning.
I can tell you a little more. That's good for now. The Holy Spirit is a gentle, blending in with your own thought life almost un-intrusively seeing WHAT you will do with a little heavenly wisdom at a time.
As you go along with the Holy Spirit you get stronger spiritually and your sense of His speaking gets keener.
Sometimes you can experiment.
JUST IN CASE... that was the Spirit of Christ speaking in my heart, I am going to go along with it to see what happens.
Lots of time you know that the Holy Spirit has spoken to you because IMMEDIATELY after He speaks ARGUMENTS arise up in your heart against what you just thought.
LIke - God speaks in your heart and in your conscience. Almost immediately you begin to rationalize that THAT was not a good idea and you'd RATHER do something else.
Having a time to pray and read the word of God helps one to learn this . It is a life long learning.
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @sonshipGod speaks to everyone that way. If you think that Christians are unique in that regard you are mistaken
God speaks to us by means of His Holy Word and the Holy Spirit.
Often times His speaking is like a still small voice in our conscience. We may think it is just ourselves thinking. He blends in with us. He is gentle and not intrusive.
One of the symbols of the Holy Spirit is a [b]dove in the Bible.
A dove is a gentle animal. In fact it ...[text shortened]... ng a time to pray and read the word of God helps one to learn this . It is a life long learning.[/b]
02 Jul 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThe New testament gospel starts with the commandments of Christ and how critical it is to do it to enter the kingdom of God.
Your threads have nothing to do with the New Testament Gospel.
They are just overcooked individualized Jehovah's Witnesses errors. The only thing missing is going door to door with Watchtower publications.
It continues with how You must follow the commandments otherwise there is no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
The New testament ends with the clear statement that only those who follow Christ and do his commandments will enter the new Jerusalem.
Outside will be preachers like you who lie and deceive.