Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 27 Feb '18 11:47 / 8 edits
    An important reason that Jesus cleansed the temple was because the late OT prophets had revealed that God no longer wanted sacrifices. God wanted loyalty instead. Yet this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned.

    The entire sacrificial system had been abrogated, yet people were carrying on as if sacrifices were still of value to God. Jesus understood this and took it upon himself to drive out of the temple everything that had been built up around this now worthless system. They were "robbers" because what was being sold was worthless. Jesus drove out anyone having anything to do with this now worthless system.

    God wants loyalty, not sacrifice.

    A foundational concept for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is loyalty to God instead of sacrifice.

    Why do you think that this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned by Christians?
  2. Subscriber Kegge On Vacation
    27 Feb '18 11:59
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    An important reason that Jesus cleansed the temple was because the late OT prophets had revealed that God no longer wanted sacrifices. God wanted loyalty instead. Yet this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned.

    The entire sacrificial system had been abrogated, yet people were carrying on as if sacrifices were still of value to God. Jesus unde ...[text shortened]... ce.

    Why do you think that this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned by Christians?
    Because apparently your god realized he was wrong demanding sacrifices, and admitting your god is fallable would destroy your world view.
  3. 27 Feb '18 12:13 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @kegge
    Because apparently your god realized he was wrong demanding sacrifices, and admitting your god is fallable would destroy your world view.
    Actually the narrative is more like God had tired of sacrifices and was now going to demand loyalty. In doing so, God shut the door on vicarious atonement.

    God wants his followers to be truly righteous.The author of 1 John recognized this:
    1 John 3
    7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
  4. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 Feb '18 12:46
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    An important reason that Jesus cleansed the temple was because the late OT prophets had revealed that God no longer wanted sacrifices. God wanted loyalty instead. Yet this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned.

    The entire sacrificial system had been abrogated, yet people were carrying on as if sacrifices were still of value to God. Jesus unde ...[text shortened]... ce.

    Why do you think that this important reason rarely if ever gets mentioned by Christians?
    Are you referring to this passage from Scripture?

    “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

    And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.“

    (Matthew 21:12-13)

    I think those verses demonstrate that Jesus objected to commerce taking place in the Temple.
  5. Subscriber Kegge On Vacation
    27 Feb '18 12:51
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Actually the narrative is more like God had tired of sacrifices and was now going to demand loyalty. In doing so, God shut the door on vicarious atonement.

    God wants his followers to be truly righteous.The author of 1 John recognized this:
    1 John 3
    7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
    I see. So your god is still okay with sacrificing people on his behalf, every now and then he grows a bit tired of it ... like I grow tired of having to many Doritos. Noted.
  6. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    27 Feb '18 13:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    The entire sacrificial system had been abrogated, yet people were carrying on as if sacrifices were still of value to God. Jesus understood this and took it upon himself to drive out of the temple everything that had been built up around this now worthless system. They were "robbers" because what was being sold was worthless. Jesus drove out anyone having anything to do with this now worthless system.


    Jesus healed a man and INSTRUCTED him to go and offer a sacrifice according to the Levitical practice.

    "And Jesus said to him, See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses commanded, for a testimony to them." (Matt. 8:4)


    See Leviticus 13:49; 14:2-9; Luke 17:14
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 Feb '18 13:12
    Originally posted by @kegge
    I see. So your god is still okay with sacrificing people on his behalf, every now and then he grows a bit tired of it ... like I grow tired of having to many Doritos. Noted.
    God was never Ok with sacrificing people on His behalf. Where’d you get that?
  8. 27 Feb '18 13:17
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Are you referring to this passage from Scripture?

    “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

    And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieve ...[text shortened]...

    I think those verses demonstrate that Jesus objected to commerce taking place in the Temple.
    You continue to demonstrate that you understand little if anything of what Jesus preached during His ministry.

    You seem to have a "Sunday School" understanding: Simplistic and designed to make you feel good.
  9. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 Feb '18 13:19
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    You continue to demonstrate that you understand little if anything of what Jesus preached during His ministry.

    You seem to have a "Sunday School" understanding: Simplistic and designed to make you feel good.
    More insults instead of substance.

    Sad.
  10. 27 Feb '18 13:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kegge
    I see. So your god is still okay with sacrificing people on his behalf, every now and then he grows a bit tired of it ... like I grow tired of having to many Doritos. Noted.
    If you're referring the depiction of Jesus' death on the cross as being an "atoning sacrifice", that's just part of the mythology that the NT writer wrapped around the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. It's nonsense and you're right to question it.
  11. 27 Feb '18 13:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @sonship
    The entire sacrificial system had been abrogated, yet people were carrying on as if sacrifices were still of value to God. Jesus understood this and took it upon himself to drive out of the temple everything that had been built up around this now worthless system. They were "robbers" because what was being sold was worthless. Jesus drove out anyone ...[text shortened]... testimony to them." (Matt. 8:4)


    See Leviticus 13:49; 14:2-9; Luke 17:14 [/b]
    The NT writers didn't seem to think this one through. They seem to have put Jesus into the perverse position of asking the man to carry out the deception of going to the priest to be cleansed of leprosy as a way of hiding how he was actually cleansed. Also, you really need to think through the nature of the supposed "miracles".
  12. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 Feb '18 13:42
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    If you're referring the depiction of Jesus' death on the cross as being an "atoning sacrifice", that's just part of the mythology that the NT writer wrapped around the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. It's nonsense and you're right to question it.
    Jesus Christ Himself spoke of why He was being crucified and said He would rise again on the third day.

    Apparently the “mythology” you refer to existed in the Old Testament too. See Isaiah chapter 53.
  13. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    27 Feb '18 13:45
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    The NT writers didn't seem to think this one through. They seem to have put Jesus into the perverse position of asking the man to carry out the deception of going to the priest to be cleansed of leprosy as a way of hiding how he was actually cleansed. Also, you really need to think through the nature of the supposed "miracles".
    So you dispute the Gospel writers when they write about Jesus Christ performing miracles and saying He came down from heaven and identifying Himself as God, but you trust the Gospel writers when they write about what Jesus taught.

    Is that your position?
  14. 27 Feb '18 13:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    More insults instead of substance.

    Sad.
    Here. Let's see if we can help you to develop something deeper than a "Sunday School" understanding.

    Find all the depictions of the cleaning of the temple. Compare and contrast them to synthesize a more robust picture. After you've done that, see if you can find a tangentially related passage that will serve to illuminate what Jesus was conveying.

    If you understood other things that Jesus taught, you'd be doing these types of things as a matter of routine. It's clear that you neither understand nor do those types of things..
  15. 27 Feb '18 13:46
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    God wants loyalty, not sacrifice.
    What is the name of your god?