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Originally posted by @secondsonOf the two statements, #1.) I think is more important.
Not appreciating First as the Firstborn Son is a deficiency in realizing the depths of God's salvation.
God determined in His good please to have sons even before He created the universe. Are you saying God wanted to have sons but Christ is not one in eternity? That makes little sense.
As the only begotten Son Christ has no brothers.
But as the Firstborn Son He does have many brothers according to the foreknowledge and predestination of the Father.
Alarms that "Firstborn Son" you cannot locate in the text is not as crucial as the FACT being located. He was declared the Son of God [Firstborn] on the day of
resurrection.
Says the Apostle Paul here:
" ... the gospel of God ...which He promised befoirehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
Concerning His Son ... Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." (See Romans 1:1-4)
My Lord Jesus Christ was designated the Son of God our of the resurrection. Put this together with Colossians 1:18 and we most logically have Christ - the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection.
"And He [Christ] is the Head of the Body, the church, He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead ..."
Put this together with the fact that on "this day" God announced that He had BEGOTTEN a Son in Acts 13:33.
That God has fully fulfilled his promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is written in the second Psalm.
"You are My Son, this day I have begotten You."
And as to have raised Him up from the dead, ... "
"[T]his day" is the day of His resurrection.
The case vanishes in light of the Scripture, that Jesus is not the Firstborn Son of God.
I don't expect you to back down on your wanting to deny that Jesus is the FIrstborn Son of God. But perhaps you could explain to me what you see as the DANGER of us believing that He is?
What peril to the Christian church occurs for believing Jesus in resurrection is the Firstborn Son ?
Originally posted by @secondsonI would not initially go to those passages to talk about deification. The article I quoted was about Athanasius and other early church scholars who did teach deification as a part of salvation.
[b]“He was made man that we might be made God”
Absurd.
Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34 are not a proof texts for that concept. That is an incorrect interpretation. Notice the lower case g in the word "gods."[/b]
The Greek Orthodox denomination has long held to theosis as a part of God's full salvation.
I do agree with the axiom that God became man so that man might become God - but not in His Godhead. But in life and nature God builds Himself into man and man into Himself.
Your resistance to the concept of Jesus as the Firstborn Son of God may be connected to your condemnation of Athanasius's pronouncement.
You may disagree as a Christian now. But eventually you too will be "like Him" (1 John 3:2).
Surely, you don't think John meant we will both be wearing sandals or that we will be "like Him" in some superficial sense.
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Originally posted by @secondson
[b]1.) is Jesus the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection?
"Firstborn Son of God" does not appear in scripture. "Firstborn" is not a title, it's locative. Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead never to die again. Hence the verse that says "...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
2.) Are there nations of races livin ...[text shortened]... on is spurious; "races living in eternity who are not sons of God" is an extra-Biblical concept.
2.) Are there nations of races living in eternity who are not sons of God but are blessed by them?"
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That notion has no basis in scripture. It is conjecture. The question is spurious; "races living in eternity who are not sons of God" is an extra-Biblical concept.
It is a difficult concept to accept.
It is not extra-Biblical.
It does bother our desire that the Bible would be 100% systematized.
I may lay out the case as to why I say it is not extra-biblical.
Sons of God would have God indwelling them as their life.
Adam and Eve were created "very good". And they had no reason to DIE, besides the reason of eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The nations that are not in the city of New Jerusalem will be healed and restored back to that state. But the recipients of God's dispensing of His life into them, are the sons who will reign over these nations.
Who are the sons of God to reign over forever and ever?
It is the healed and restored nations that have been made to be as Adam was before he fell - a blessed everlasting life was a good creation.
But God's main purpose is with the sonship possessed by those who have been swallowed up by the divine life of God who are the New Jerusalem.
Originally posted by @secondsonThats a good word for sonship.
[b]1.) is Jesus the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection?
"Firstborn Son of God" does not appear in scripture. "Firstborn" is not a title, it's locative. Jesus is the first to be resurrected from the dead never to die again. Hence the verse that says "...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
2.) Are there nations of races livin ...[text shortened]... on is spurious; "races living in eternity who are not sons of God" is an extra-Biblical concept.
EXTRA-BIBLICAL
Originally posted by @sonshipThats EXTRABIBLICAL
[quote] [b]2.) Are there nations of races living in eternity who are not sons of God but are blessed by them?"
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That notion has no basis in scripture. It is conjecture. The question is spurious; "races living in eternity who are not sons of God" is an extra-Biblical concept.
[/q ...[text shortened]... se who have been swallowed up by the divine life of God who are the New Jerusalem.[/b]
Originally posted by @sonshipExtra-biblical again.
I would not initially go to those passages to talk about [b]deification. The article I quoted was about Athanasius and other early church scholars who did teach deification as a part of salvation.
The Greek Orthodox denomination has long held to theosis as a part of God's full salvation.
I do agree with the axiom that God became m ...[text shortened]... we will both be wearing sandals or that we will be "like Him" in some superficial sense.[/b]
Originally posted by @sonship"Deification" and being "...conformed to the image of his Son,.." are mutually exclusive concepts.
I would not initially go to those passages to talk about [b]deification. The article I quoted was about Athanasius and other early church scholars who did teach deification as a part of salvation.
The Greek Orthodox denomination has long held to theosis as a part of God's full salvation.
I do agree with the axiom that God became m ...[text shortened]... we will both be wearing sandals or that we will be "like Him" in some superficial sense.[/b]
You will not find scriptural evidence to support the assertion that man is deified in any sense of the word, at least not without wresting it out of the scriptures.
"You may disagree as a Christian now. But you too will be "like Him" "
Quote the whole verse. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2
It does not "yet appear what we shall be", only that we will be like him.
homoios. Like, similar, resembling. This cannot be misconstrued to infer that we will be an exact duplicate.
There is only one God, and there will never be another. God is infinite, and we will always be finite.
The concept of the deification of man is foreign to the narrative of scripture. The Word of God is the only authority, but the opinions of theologians, if they don't square with the scriptures, are corrupt.
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Originally posted by @secondson
"Deification" and being "...conformed to the image of his Son,.." are mutually exclusive concepts.
if properly understood it is completely consistent, not mutually exclusive at all.
What do you think about the Apostle Peter saying that the Christians are "partakers of the divine nature".
" ... you might become partakers of the divine nature, ... " (Second Peter 1:4)
Please notice. This is not saying the believers are merely -
"Admirers ... of the divine nature" or
"Worshipers ... of the divine nature" or
"Spectators ... of the divine nature".
This is participation in that nature - "partakers of the divine nature."
Would you argue that being conformed to the image of the Firstborn among many brothers is "mutually exclusive" to those brothers being "partakers of the divine nature" ?
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Originally posted by @secondson
Quote the whole verse. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2
I'm all for quoting more of the passage.
But what does quoting the rest of the passage or even the rest of the entire epistle do to refute that "We shall be like him" ?
How is any supposed "sneaky" excluding of the rest of the passage change anything?
It does not yet appear what we shall be.
Just as the creation awaits "the revelation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19) .
That what is hidden will be manifested in ways in which we have not yet seen doesn't argue that we will not be like Him.
It does not "yet appear what we shall be", only that we will be like him.
homoios. Like, similar, resembling. This cannot be misconstrued to infer that we will be an exact duplicate.
How "like Him" is "like Him" ?
The more "like Him" the more glory to God and the better for us as the saved.
"There is another glory for the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
It is sown a soulish body, it is raised a spiritual body, If there is a soulish body there is also a spiritual one." (1 Cor. 15:41-44)
It has not happened yet so of course we do not yet know.
But you know the overcoming saints will be "marveled at" as people witness Christ's glory shining out of them, hitherto unseen.
The more transformation of the soul within the physical body, probably, the more glorious the manifestation of sonship, the redemption of the body.
" When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day." (1 Thess. 1:10)
There is only one God, and there will never be another. God is infinite, and we will always be finite.
Being "like Him" I wrote above was about the communicable attributes of God.
The believers will not share the non-communicable attributes of God. To name a few:
We will never be objects of worship.
We will never be creators of universes.
We will never be omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
These are non-communicable attributes of the Godhead.
But we are now "partakers of the divine nature".
And it has not yet been manifested how God desires to reveal visibly this coming splendor.
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The concept of the deification of man is foreign to the narrative of scripture.
No it is not.
First Corinthians 6:17 says that the humans joined to the Lord Jesus Christ are "one spirit" with Him.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
That means that after I receive Jesus Christ into my spirit, at least one part of my being is Jesus Christ. I have become a PARTAKER of the divine nature (Second Peter 1:4).
Some of us want the word of God.
We don't care so much for a traditional flavor of Protestantism but the pure word of God.
How could you assume that God wants us to be "like Him" only in an outward sense but not "like Him" in the inner man, in the mind, emotion, and will ?
So we need transformation into the same image by the Lord Spirit, from glory to glory, by degree and degree and degree.
"But whenever it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, and being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:16-18)
Originally posted by @sonshipOk sonship. You've essentially blown me away with this. I get what you're saying. Before I say any more I'm going to make a closer study of 2 Corinthians 3.
The concept of the deification of man is foreign to the narrative of scripture.
No it is not.
[b] First Corinthians 6:17 says that the humans joined to the Lord Jesus Christ are "one spirit" with Him."But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
That means that after I recei ...[text shortened]... he same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:16-18) [/b] [/quote][/b]
I'll be back.
Originally posted by @secondsonThere is a recovery of the truth happening in these days. A number of us around the globe have been "blown away" so to speak by seeing what in the New Testament has been neglected too long.
Ok sonship. You've essentially blown me away with this. I get what you're saying. Before I say any more I'm going to make a closer study of 2 Corinthians 3.
I'll be back.
The God of the Reformation is moving on. He is moving on again.
The same God who illuminated the pages of the New Testament to brother Martin Luther is again uncovering the neglected truths of the New Testament.
Deification means saturation with the life of Christ.
God dispenses His life into us to permeate us and saturate us via transformation. From the center to the circumference He seeks to sanctify us by spreading His life all throughout our being.
In resurrection and rapture He will burst out into our body.
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Originally posted by @sonshipJesus Christ is the TRUTH, and your heart is far from Him.
There is a [b]recovery of the truth happening in these days. A number of us around the globe have been "blown away" so to speak by seeing what in the New Testament has been neglected too long.
The God of the Reformation is moving on. He is moving on again.[/b]
The Recovery you speak of,
and which apparently has 'blown you away',
is the doctrine of men.
God of the Reformation ?? !! There is no such God.
You are a false worshipper and a worshipper of false gods.