Originally posted by @divegeester
Divegeester! 90% agreement with the old waffling sonship ??
Well, that 10% disagreement is sure a dusie!
I've explained in a post further back with scriptures please have a look.
Jesus was born, his flesh had a beginning and it therefore, by definition, is not eternal and therefore has an end.
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That's what I believe too.
"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14)
Hear me out sonship...
If you look at the scriptures I quoted you will see contradiction within them, some saying Jesus kingdom and his reign over it is forever, other saying not so, that he will hand over authority to the father.
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I'm listening.
Have you though, considered this?
The ever submissive Son delivers up the kingdom to God His Father,
AND it is the will of God the Father that the Son reign forever and ever.
I don't see the Son delivering up the kingdom to His Father as a sign of any disharmony, competition, rivalry, what-so-ever.
For God to be
"all in all" has to include the Son who is God.
"And when all things have been subjective to Him, the the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him,
that God may be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:28)
You see this as Christ the Son being in a sense "fired" from His office. I don't at all. I merely see the uttermost harmony of the Divine Trinity.
is there
anything in the climax book of
Revelation indicating that Christ the Son's exaltation and enthronement is terminated ?
Now the trinity deals with this by presuming three persons and making one lower than the other at times, etc. The unitarian model of the Godhead (for want of a better adjective) describes what is happening in one person, one super being, being manifested in multiple ways:
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That's fine. The word "person" or "persons" can only be taken so far. Human language is limited to express this
Father - Son - Holy Spirit relationship exhaustively.
Before I quoted some theologians and you seemed not to want to consider their words. In some cases I think what the brothers of the past sometimes said was pretty wise.
Ie.
"The persons mutually contain each other, and all the three have an immeasurable whereabouts, so that wherever one Person is there the other two exist ...
the coinherence [mutual indwelling] of the Divine Persons is indeed a very great mystery, which we ought rather religiously to adore than curiously to pry into. No similitude can be devised which shall be able in every respect apt to illustrate it; no language avails worthily to set it forth, seeing that it is a union which far transcends all other unions."
- Bishop Bull
From
"The Testimony of Church History Regarding the Mystery of the Triune God" Bill Freeman.
We speak something not from a pride that we can completely explain God, but rather not to remain completely silent about Him.
- wrapped in a veil of flesh
- a powerful but comforting and counselling gentle spirit
- an almighty God
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Amen to the enjoyment of God the Spirit.
But the same person - with these offices he holds serving each other to reveal his purpose. So when Jesus hands over the kingdom to the father it is not one person handing authority to another, it is a change of office.
The office of son is NOT eternal, there is NO "eternal son".
Can you see that, even if you don't agree with it?
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The best way to take in these things is to say "Amen" to whatever the word of God utters to us.
While this may not suite the human pride to bring systematic consistency to all the mysteries of the Bible, it does facilitate our participation in God, because we trust that God has uttered His word and we may trust it and Him.
Don't you wish me to also believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever ?
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes, even forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
How about I believe both - the Son delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father that God may be all in all, AND ...
"Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and even forever." ?
How about I say
"AMEN !!" to all that the word has told us?
(I believe that
"yesterday" there means since His resurrection. )
Jesus is the same - SINCE His resurrection, today, and on into eternity.
That is all the time I have this morning.