Why Do You Think Jesus Wept ?

jaywill

Spirituality

14 Jan '12 01:16

Rajk999
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24 Jan '12 21:582 edits
Originally posted by Melanerpes
I will agree with you - the "once saved always saved" concept does seem to be an overly simplified version of what Paul is trying to say in Romans - and I understand your frustration with a certain type of Christianity. But Paul, nevertheless, in Romans, is trying to say something very important.

And yes, the Bible teaches that there is punishment for ...[text shortened]... is a call to do good works. But this is also very much the case for the Old Testament as well.
In Romans Paul explained the concept of GRACE.

And that is where Christianity has gone astray and added significantly to what Paul said, in order to conclude that works are not required.

If I were to put the whole thing in an example ..

Its like we have a car and it crashes [Adam's sin] , and there is no way for us to fix it. A wealthy uncle [God] sends us a brand new car, which we did not deserve. But we have to do certain things in order to use it and benefit from it .. license it, pay the insurance, buy gas. It still remains a free gift but we cannot use without following what are normal requirements of owning a car.

I cannot see how anyone can read the teachings of Christ and Paul and all the Apostles and come away with the idea that you don't have to do good works.

I suspect is Christianity's easy route to 'salvation' and it fulls up the churches and makes pastors rich. Thats the only explanation that makes sense.

But its the road to damnation.
Rajk999
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24 Jan '12 22:09
Originally posted by Melanerpes
I pretty much agree with what you say here.

But you make no mention about the Holy Spirit. What role do you believe the Spirit plays?
The Holy Spirit is the power of God and is dispensed into certain people who are chosen by God to perform certain duties.

I dont know who has it but it should not be confused with water baptism.

Water Baptism does not do anything except act as a symbol of your desire to serve God and to follow the commandments of Christ.

What do you think is the role of Holy Spirit?
Melanerpes
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24 Jan '12 22:20
Originally posted by Rajk999
In Romans Paul explained the concept of GRACE.

And that is where Christianity has gone astray and added significantly to what Paul said, in order to conclude that works are not required.

If I were to put the whole thing in an example ..

Its like we have a car and it crashes [Adam's sin] , and there is no way for us to fix it. A wealthy uncle [God] s ...[text shortened]... astors rich. Thats the only explanation that makes sense.

But its the road to damnation.
the reason I mention the Holy Spirit is because that's what empowers you to do the good works.

I think the idea is that you use your faith in Christ to gain access to the Father who fills you with the Spirit - the Spirit provides you with various gifts (various forms of wisdom or power) - you then use those gifts to do good works - and this in turn causes others (and yourself) to be filled with joy. This in turn should make you eager to do more good works.

But I agree - the church runs into much trouble if it tries to offer people "joy" without anyone having to do the good works.
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24 Jan '12 22:391 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
the reason I mention the Holy Spirit is because that's what empowers you to do the good works.

I think the idea is that you use your faith in Christ to gain access to the Father who fills you with the Spirit - the Spirit provides you with various gifts (various forms of wisdom or power) - you then use those gifts to do good works - and this in turn ca ...[text shortened]... to much trouble if it tries to offer people "joy" without anyone having to do the good works.
Was the Good Samaritan empowered by the Holy Spirit to do good works? The priest and the Levite should have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to do good works according to you. So what happened then ? Whats was that story about? Modern Christianity has twisted all those parables just the same way that Jaywill has some convoluted nonsense explanation for Matt 25 about how Christ will judge according to our works.

Can you provide a quote where Christ said ONLY the Holy Spirit empowers one to do good works.

Read Romans 2: 9-15 .. There are some who have no law but still do good works because their conscience guides them. The works of the law is written in their hearts. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they were as gods knowing good and evil. We inherited that ability and good and evil is written in our conscience. Every one of Adams descendents whether Christian or Muslim or whoever has that ability to descern good from evil and know what good works are and what evil works are.

I would agree that having some power of the Holy Spirit should empower you to do greater works. Im certain however that many who claim to posses the power of the Holy Spirit are just fakes. I know of many pastors who speak in tongues and pretend to anoint people and its just all a sham.
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24 Jan '12 23:201 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
Was the Good Samaritan empowered by the Holy Spirit to do good works? The priest and the Levite should have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to do good works according to you. So what happened then ? Whats was that story about? Modern Christianity has twisted all those parables just the same way that Jaywill has some convoluted nonsense explanation for Mat ...[text shortened]... know of many pastors who speak in tongues and pretend to anoint people and its just all a sham.
I agree - many of the pastors who put on a big show are probably suspect.
Paul emphasizes that without love, you're just a noisy gong and a clashing cymbal. Even if you're doing really awesome stuff like moving mountains.

Consider the famous scene when Elijah was in the desert in 1 Kg 19 - and the Lord wasn't in the heavy wind or the earthquake or the fire - rather the Lord was in the tiny whispering sound. I think this could illustrate a way to look at Christianity - if you want to see the Lord's work, ignore the loud gongs and cymbals and instead appreciate the humble people who whisper while quietly doing good things.
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24 Jan '12 23:293 edits
You raise an interesting issue with the Good Samaritan -- clearly he was not a "follower of Christ" - at least not consciously - nor was he a law-abiding Jew -- and yet he was used by Christ as an illustration.

And Matthew 25 doesn't seem to require that the nations being judged were specifically "followers of Christ".

Perhaps the point is that if Christ himself is Love - then anyone who is "moved by compassion" and acts on it like the Good Samaritan did is in fact following Christ whether he realizes it or not?

The point Paul makes at the beginning of Romans, though, is that in our natural state, we usually end up being like the priest and levite - even though we know we should be (and even want to be) like the Samaritan.
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25 Jan '12 00:391 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
I agree - many of the pastors who put on a big show are probably suspect.
Paul emphasizes that without love, you're just a noisy gong and a clashing cymbal. Even if you're doing really awesome stuff like moving mountains.

Consider the famous scene when Elijah was in the desert in 1 Kg 19 - and the Lord wasn't in the heavy wind or the earthquake or th ymbals and instead appreciate the humble people who whisper while quietly doing good things.
I actually do just that .. ignore the fancy loud pentecostal preachers and see the poor and simple people. That is also why I encourage people to ignore preachers who falsely claim that good works is of no value.

You say Paul emphasizes love. Tell me how do you show love if not by good works.
If you dont bother with good works and follow modern Christinaity which preaches that good works is useless how do you show love? By singing? , by focussing on the Triune God?, 'eating' Christ, dwelling in Christ ? Can you explain that? How do you show love if not by good works?
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25 Jan '12 11:561 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
I'm having trouble figuring out where the "good news" is in your version of the gospel.

It seems like what you're saying is that everyone just needs to repent and do good works. But isn't that what all the Old Testament prophets said?

How did Jesus make things different from the way they were before?
Rajk9999 also wrote this to me:

Your entire doctrine rests on this statement. And yet it is not in the Bible.

You have to twist several passages and join them in order to come close to it.

Nobody is eternally justified.

But Hebrews speaks of an eternal redemption.

"And not through the blood of goats and calves but through His own blood, entered once for all into the [Holy of] Holies, obtaining an eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12)

Jesus Christ obtained for His believers who trust in Him "AN ETERNAL REDEMPTION".

That is good news.

You are displaying more patience with Rajk999 than I am. I have lost the heart to want to argue with Rajk999. Once a bible reader gets frozen into a myopic view with a short attention span, the mind seems padlocked closed.

The book of Hebrews is excellent in both the security of eternal salvation and the sober responsibility of grace.
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25 Jan '12 12:361 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
You raise an interesting issue with the Good Samaritan -- clearly he was not a "follower of Christ" - at least not consciously - nor was he a law-abiding Jew -- and yet he was used by Christ as an illustration.

And Matthew 25 doesn't seem to require that the nations being judged were specifically "followers of Christ".

Perhaps the point is that if t and levite - even though we know we should be (and even want to be) like the Samaritan.
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25 Jan '12 13:321 edit
Originally posted by jaywill
Rajk9999 also wrote this to me:

Your entire doctrine rests on this statement. And yet it is not in the Bible.

You have to twist several passages and join them in order to come close to it.

Nobody is eternally justified.

But [b]Hebrews speaks of an eternal redemption.

"And not through the blood of goats and ...[text shortened]... ent in [b]both the security of eternal salvation and the sober responsibility of grace.[/b][/b]
That refers to eternal redemption which all the faithful will receive from Christ when he returns.

You have failed to show how and why you, Jaywill, can claim that you are eternally saved NOW. Plus you have made the claim that you know of thousands who are also eternally saved.

Here is what is wrong with that kind of thinking :

1. You have preempted the judgment of Christ and playing God.
2. You are taking what does not belong to you yet. A life in Christ is something you have to do and live and prove that you are worthy.
3. You have to demonstrate brotherly love and charitable love the way Paul said you must .. 1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

There is no reason to think that anyone is eternally saved unless Christ returns and everyone is judged at the regeneration ..

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So sorry, you will have to work and pray and wait in hope for that day when Christ returns and then and only then can you claim that you are eternally saved.

However if you sin to the point where you fall short then .. there is no more sacrifice for sins ..

Heb 10:26-26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So wherever you got the idea that a believer should not have to live in fear of the consequences of sin, I have no clue. Its in the Bible. Read it.

IF YOU SIN AFTER YOU ACCEPT CHRIST .. BE FEARFUL.

Your doctrine has proven to me that you and your type are guilty of all of the following offences :

1. You and your religion are playing God
2. You and making unauthorised judgments on behalf of Christ and telling innocent and gullible followers that they are eternally saved, even before Christ has judged them.
3. You are telling people they dont have to worry about sin, or that they cannot sin.
4. You are telling people that works are not important and works are in fact offensive to God.

All of the above are dangerous practices and doctrines and they border on blasphemous.
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25 Jan '12 14:33
Originally posted by Rajk999
That refers to eternal redemption which all the faithful will receive from Christ when he returns.

You have failed to show how and why you, Jaywill, can claim that you are eternally saved NOW. Plus you have made the claim that you know of thousands who are also eternally saved.

Here is what is wrong with that kind of thinking :

1. You have preempte ...[text shortened]... o God.

All of the above are dangerous practices and doctrines and they border on blasphemous.
That refers to eternal redemption which all the faithful will receive from Christ when he returns.

It says "having OBTAINED" .

It is not there "will obtain".

You have failed to show how and why you, Jaywill, can claim that you are eternally saved NOW. Plus you have made the claim that you know of thousands who are also eternally saved.

Can't be unborn once you are born.

And I asked some things to which you did not reply. So I don't feel any special obligation to respond to each inquirey you make. And you can state I failed as much as you please.

I think readers can see if there has been failure or not.

Here is what is wrong with that kind of thinking :

1. You have preempted the judgment of Christ and playing God.

Baloney.

Did you NEVER EVER READ IT ???

"He who believes into Him is not condemned ..." (John 3:18)

I don't have time to tit for tat with you. You really need to read the Bible more carefully, maybe PRAYERFULLY.

Maybe you need some better commentaries too.

There is no premption by me here:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Melanerpes
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25 Jan '12 15:09
Originally posted by jaywill
That refers to eternal redemption which all the faithful will receive from Christ when he returns.

It says [b]"having OBTAINED" .

It is not there "will obtain".

[quote]
You have failed to show how and why you, Jaywill, can claim that you are eternally saved NOW. Plus you have made the claim that you know of thousands who ar ...[text shortened]... d does not come into judgment but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24) [/b][/b]
Jaywill - for the sake of argument - let's assume that you are correct about salvation.

Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without worry. You can end up with a church full of people praising the Lord and then behaving terribly the rest of the week.

So, as a practical matter, how do you go about motivating people to do good works - especially if those good works involve making sacrifices?

I'm not sure if "missing out on the millenial dispensation" is going to do it - many people will still conclude that it's okay - as long as in the end they know they'll be saved.
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25 Jan '12 16:231 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
Jaywill - for the sake of argument - let's assume that you are correct about salvation.

Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without wor will still conclude that it's okay - as long as in the end they know they'll be saved.
Melanerpes, if you are part of a Church which preaches the same thing as Jaywill's church, I have the utmost respect for you . It takes a lot of vision to see past what the pastor preaches and a lot of guts to stand up for what is right and what is true, rather than take the easy route and go with the popular crowd.

Now even if Jaywill were to in fact address the issue you raised and explain how to motivate followers to do good works, how does anyone know what they in fact do? How can Jaywill know? How can Jaywill proclaim, truthfully, that he knows of thousands of saved people. Does he know the heart and mind of those people? Does he know the intimate details about their lives?

To me that is utterly blasphemous that Jaywill can claim to know these things and then he proceeds to judge them and say with confidence that they are eternally saved.

Jaywill and his type of religions are making a mockery of Christ and of God.

Gal 6:7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Talk is cheap. Its about your life in Christ .. your whole life and the WORKS you do to show LOVE to those around you. You cannot get salvation on the basis of one day of saying I believe in Christ.
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25 Jan '12 17:2610 edits
G.K. Chesterton made one of the truly great quotes about Christianity:

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"

I admit that there is still a great deal that I have found difficult and left untried. The church should be playing an active role in helping members to move towards that Christian ideal.

In the past, especially in college, I have been involved in evangelical fellowships - but I am currently a Catholic: one of the strengths is that the congregation's activity is NOT centered around some charismatic pastor performing all sorts of "wonders" while preaching an "easy gospel". Carrying out good works is considered to be an essential part of living the faith. The main problem is that, like most large "mainstream" churches, the gospel can sometimes become too "domesticated". I am also wary about some of the traditions that aren't solidly grounded in the Bible.

I remember when I was in college, one of the things I noticed was that none of the felllowships were really engaged in any kind of "good works" - I got the sense that if you weren't a member of one of the fellowships, you would have no idea that Christians were doing anything on campus - outside of an occasional event where Bibles or tracts would be handed out. I remember one person got involved in an effort to help the homeless in the nearby city - but no one else got involved - (and unfortunately, that "no one else" included me 🙁 )
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25 Jan '12 18:23
Originally posted by Melanerpes
Jaywill - for the sake of argument - let's assume that you are correct about salvation.

Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without wor ...[text shortened]... will still conclude that it's okay - as long as in the end they know they'll be saved.
Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without worry. You can end up with a church full of people praising the Lord and then behaving terribly the rest of the week.

Consider the New Testament record. In the Epistles section of the New Testament you first have a somewhat systematic outline of major Christian tenets - the book of Romans .

After this we have First Corinthians. We may regard the church in Corinth as a typical Christian church. We may take Paul's letter to the church in Corinth to represent the typical situation in a local church on the earth.

Is she a utopia ? No indeed. Rather she is filled with problems of all types. Here is division. Here is playing one hero against another. Here is a man in bad fornication who needs to be put OUT of the congregation. Here is a brother with a law suit against another brother. Here are some people unruly at the Lord's Table. Here are some tough questions about complicated marriage situations.

Umm, Welcome to the TYPICAL New Testament local church - the fabulous church in Corinth. Here are many opportunities for those who are serving the Lord to shepherd, feed, minister, heal, teach and generally serve as examples to the brother and sisters.

No, the NT does not have any FOOL PROOF method of making the local congregation a utopian group of ONLY splendid and victorious spiritual giants.

Now some churches were more mature. Some were less so. Judging from the letters we see much was in good order in Philippi. We see the churches in Galatia practically telling Paul to pack up is stuff and go away. Corinth questions the legitimacy of his apostleship. Thessalonika seems to be very young Christians giddy about the second coming of Christ. Colossi has problems with being too philosophical.

There is no record of a church filled only with overcoming spiritual giants. We serve the saints in love. We do not weary of well doing. And we do not judge.

Listen, in the night when your house is dark with all the lights off, you can see very clearly what is going on in all the other houses in the neighborhood. But when your own house has all the lights turned on you cannot see that well outside into other's houses.

This is how the Christian should be. The light within makes her aware of her own condition before God. Concerning others' condition he may not be so crystal clear what their problems are.

The priniciple of kingdom living is to be strict with one's self and accomodating with others. It is to be straight with ourselves before Christ but merciful with others.

There are the overcomers. There are those who are defeated. We should want to be those who overcome and not just saved with our "ticket".

But there is no garuantee that I know of, that a local church will not have its members at varied levels of consecration, varied levels of sanctification, varied levels of clearness about the truth, varied levels of behavior. Even Paul could not give you a fool proof garuantee of laying a foundation of Christ that would ONLY have believers building with "gold, silver, and precious stones" .

That's good for this post. We can kick it around further in another post.