Originally posted by jaywill526 words.
[quote] Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without worry. You can end up with a church full of people praising the Lord and then behaving t ...[text shortened]... .
That's good for this post. We can kick it around further in another post.[/b]
Zero issues addressed.
Typical.
Originally posted by MelanerpesMelanerpes, did you find anything relevant to what you asked in my post ?
G.K. Chesterton made one of the truly great quotes about Christianity:
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried"
I admit that there is still a great deal that I have found difficult and left untried. The church should be playing an active role in helping members to move towards that Chri ...[text shortened]... one else got involved - (and unfortunately, that "no one else" included me 🙁 )
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Originally posted by Melanerpes
Jaywill - for the sake of argument - let's assume that you are correct about salvation.
Could you address Rajk's main objection because he raises a very legitimate issue -- if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without wor will still conclude that it's okay - as long as in the end they know they'll be saved.
if the true doctrine is that "you can never lose your salvation", it is understandable that some (many) people will conclude that they can now do all sorts of bad things without worry.
Short answer:
Who said that all sorts of bad things can be done "without worry" ?
Okay, the Christian can do all sorts of bad things. But eventually he will realize it is in fact NOT "without worry" - " God is not mocked. "
You know I already addressed this. Rajk999 WOULD NOT cooperate to examine WITH me Revelation 20 and the intervening 1,000 years BEFORE ... BEFORE ... the eternal age.
A lot can happen in that intervening time for the Father to further discipline some of His children.
I will go back now and find the most relevant past posts which addressed already the question. Here's part of it:
The remedy to loose Christians abusing what we sometimes call "cheap grace" is to teach them about the judgment seat of Christ - reward and discipline.
It is totally erroneous to assume that the FATHER after having eternally justified a believer has His hands tied and can no longer discipline, correct, chastize, and even PUNISH a wayward son for not growing up. And that even AFTER the second coming of Christ.
Yes, I did write the word "PUNISH".
YOU assume that because I stand firmly for "justification by faith" therefore I think God is some kind of dummy with His hands tied and cannot perfect with correction some of His wayward sons.
Originally posted by jaywillSorry for the late submission (and I'm fairly certain several have already posted something similar, but I haven't the time to jump in and read 211 posts, so please forgive me).
Please refraim from troll enties, comedian jokes, lampoon replies, wisecracks of the attention starved juvenile minded.
Any thoughtful answer I consider contributory. JS537 seems to be an Atheist. And I would like to hear his/her opinion on why Jesus wept.
JS357:
I lack that belief. But I lack belief in the father-god, the son-god, ...[text shortened]... nded to convey was obviously, not conveyed as well as other verses like "Jesus wept."
Weeping was the only conceivable human response to the situation, given that He was face to face with death--- the thing for which He was the cure, the reason for which He was on the planet, the only blight to His creation.
He came to give us life, but the other side of the coin is that He came specifically to address death. Death represents the opposite of His energy, of His being. Face to face with the state of how bad things can get, of how far afield they get without Him... I don't know of any other response which could be construed to be appropriate.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHThanks. I enjoyed that post.
Sorry for the late submission (and I'm fairly certain several have already posted something similar, but I haven't the time to jump in and read 211 posts, so please forgive me).
Weeping was the only conceivable human response to the situation, given that He was face to face with death--- the thing for which He was the cure, the reason for which He was o ...[text shortened]... without Him... I don't know of any other response which could be construed to be appropriate.
You don't have to read through 211 posts because we got WAY off the subject. And we drifted into the OLDEST discussion in the world on the Bible -
"Who gets saved and WHO does not ?"
Thousands of topics eventually gravitate back somehow to this same old question. "Is there or is there not an assurance of eternal life ?"
How many conversions about spirituality have you seen eventually morph into an argument about this ?
Originally posted by jaywillIn effect, you're saying its much better to get busy lighting candles than to continually curse the darkness. I agree.
Melanerpes, did you find anything relevant to what you asked in my post ?
But I think the concern Rajk has is not as much the actions of individual Christians or the imperfections that even the best churches will have. His main concern is that in many churches, the message itself is being greatly watered down. I think he's frustrated with the "prosperity gospel" - and he seems to be especially angry at a certain type of scam that uses a simplified message like "just say this prayer and all your spiritual (as well as material) problems will be solved - now please send me a check for $1000 to support my wonderful ministry".
I think Rajk is arguing that these problems are rooted in a message that "guarantees salvation" no matter what you do. And I think it really bothers him that the people most victimized by the scams are poor people who get suckered into "giving all that they have" in the hopes of getting some sort of concrete blessing in return.
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Originally posted by MelanerpesI agree with you on all counts. And your post causes me to sympathize with Rajk999.
In effect, you're saying its much better to get busy lighting candles than to continually curse the darkness. I agree.
But I think the concern Rajk has is not as much the actions of individual Christians or the imperfections that even the best churches will have. His main concern is that in many churches, the message itself is being greatly watered do all that they have" in the hopes of getting some sort of concrete blessing in return.
But I then become annoyed again. If he could explain to me HOW an elevator salvation - "saved now, not saved now, saved again now, not saved now" does ANYTHING to remedy the problem.
Years ago a Pentacostal paster told me that the prisons in the US had of all religion denominations, mostly Holiness people. They are the ones who take an Armenian view that you cannot be assured of eternal life.
The seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation say in each "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" .
There is also a call in each church for some to "overcome". That is to rise to the level of normality. It is not to be above the standard. It is to be AT the standard.
Each church has a call for some to HEAR and for some to OVERCOME. It will be that way for a long time, until .... (that's another topic).
Today the Lord has a recovery of the normal Christian church life. It was not that different in the Old Testament economy. There is always a remnant reserved. Remember Elijah thought he was the ONLY ONE LEFT ??
God said he had 7,000 knees that had not bowed to Baal. When people bemoan tha they are the ONLY ones faithful, the ONLY ones that see the problems, the ONLY one normal in serving God, they should remember that.