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I think what Rajk is saying is that he knows a lot of people who are Christians and go to church on Sunday, but whose lives are full of the behaviors (bitterness, envies, jealousies, rivalries, drunkenness, licentiousness etc) that characterize those who Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. (Gal 5.21 - "..I warn you..that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God" )
Jaywill - I understand the argument you have been making - a person shouldn't be filled with dread every time they lose their temper - but nevertheless, what happens if a Christian falls deeply into a lifestyle characterized by the behaviors in Paul's vice lists? Are they still, despite what Paul says, actually still assured of entering the Kingdom of Heaven?
It seems that Paul is implying that there's some sort of threshold where if your behavior falls below it, you will end up on Paul's vice list and be in real danger of losing your inheritance.
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Originally posted by Melanerpes
I think what Rajk is saying is that he knows a lot of people who are Christians and go to church on Sunday, but whose lives are full of the behaviors (bitterness, envies, jealousies, rivalries, drunkenness, licentiousness etc) that characterize those who Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. (Gal 5.21 - "..I warn you..that those who do such things will no it, you will end up on Paul's vice list and be in real danger of losing your inheritance.
I think what Rajk is saying is that he knows a lot of people who are Christians and go to church on Sunday, but whose lives are full of the behaviors (bitterness, envies, jealousies, rivalries, drunkenness, licentiousness etc) that characterize those who Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. (Gal 5.21 - "..I warn you..that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God" )
Jaywill - I understand the argument you have been making - a person shouldn't be filled with dread every time they lose their temper - but nevertheless, what happens if a Christian falls deeply into a lifestyle characterized by the behaviors in Paul's vice lists? Are they still, despite what Paul says, actually still assured of entering the Kingdom of Heaven?
Not having reviewed all the posts that have takem place since I left, I would also agree that those who are not repentent of certain life styles enumerated by Apostle Paul in three clear occasions (Ephesians 5:3-5; 1 Cor. 6:9; Gal.5:19-21) need to be sober. These warnings could endanger the eternally saved Christian of not participating in the millennial kingdom.
I have been so busy defending justification by faith that I have not had TIME to develop this additional truth.
Now I affirm that Paul CLEARLY ... CLEARLY warns that a Christain may be excluded from the reward of the 1,000 millennial kingdom at the second coming of Christ.
When Paul says he expects a crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS in Second Timothy Paul was saying he expected to be rewarded and not thus excluded.
It seems that Paul is implying that there's some sort of threshold where if your behavior falls below it, you will end up on Paul's vice list and be in real danger of losing your inheritance.
The Christian could be in danger of a temporary dispensational punishment.
I have been so focused on the security of eternal redemption through Christ that I have not had the TIME to expound here on (Ephesians 5:3-5; 1 Cor. 6:9; Gal.5:19-21)
Forum participants who have read me before should know that I have expounded these very passages in other threads in this Forum.
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Originally posted by jaywillWHAT ?? What stops you from writing in brief concise sentences ?
[quote] I think what Rajk is saying is that he knows a lot of people who are Christians and go to church on Sunday, but whose lives are full of the behaviors (bitterness, envies, jealousies, rivalries, drunkenness, licentiousness etc) that characterize those who Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. (Gal 5.21 - "..I warn you..that those who do such things wi fore should know that I have expounded these very passages in other threads in this Forum.
Someone who does not follow Christ commandments WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION.
That's all there is to it. Why cant you say that?
And what is 'temporary dispensational punishment', and where is that in the Bible?
Boy o boy you love twisting the Bible.
Originally posted by Rajk999
WHAT ?? What stops you from writing in brief concise sentences ?
[b]Someone who does not follow Christ commandments WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION.
That's all there is to it. Why cant you say that?
And what is 'temporary dispensational punishment', and where is that in the Bible?
Boy o boy you love twisting the Bible.[/b]
WHAT ?? What stops you from writing in brief concise sentences ?
Someone who does not follow Christ commandments WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION.
That's all there is to it. Why cant you say that?
And what is 'temporary dispensational punishment', and where is that in the Bible?
Boy o boy you love twisting the Bible.
That is not what I said. That is what you said.
And you STILL have not produced the QUOTATIONS justifying your accusation of my so-called church of, how did you put it? - Sin ALL YOU CAN ??
You should retact the accusation.
You should admit that you have no PROOF of me teaching such a thing.
I read your danger of a tendency statements. But that is your refinement.
Your accusation was false.
Apologizing to posters improves your quality of posting. Once you admit a mistake it may not be easy for you to make it again. I am willing to forgive you. I already have forgiven you.
I think I could develop the responsibility of Christians for the coming kingdom to a degree that some born again believers would tremble to know that they heard such things.
This, I think, is usually a matter of putting biblical support on something that Christians intuitively know within their conscience. That is " It CAN'T be so easy that now I can go on and live apart from Jesus."
THAT IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN. Even a BIRD needs two wings to fly.
Now I admit cheerfully that the teaching of Justification By Faith has been over stressed by some teachers to give a misunderstanding of the whole scope of the new covenant.
And what is 'temporary dispensational punishment', and where is that in the Bible?
First read Revelation chapter 20. Come back and tell me how many times you count the phrase "a thousand years".
I'm going to have you do some of the work if you really want to know.
How many times did John write about a "thousand years" in Revelation 20 ?
Originally posted by jaywillBy what authority do you claim that someone not following the commandments of Christ will receive that punishment. Who are you to make that call. Are you Christ? Did Christ say that?And what is 'temporary dispensational punishment', and where is that in the Bible?
First read Revelation chapter 20. Come back and tell me how many times you count the phrase [b]"a thousand years".
I'm going to have you do some of the work if you really want to know.
How many times did John write about a "thousand years" in Revelation 20 ?[/b]
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Originally posted by MelanerpesThanks for rewording what I said in a more understandable way.
I think what Rajk is saying is that he knows a lot of people who are Christians and go to church on Sunday, but whose lives are full of the behaviors (bitterness, envies, jealousies, rivalries, drunkenness, licentiousness etc) that characterize those who Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. (Gal 5.21 - "..I warn you..that those who do such things will no it, you will end up on Paul's vice list and be in real danger of losing your inheritance.
What you said, about what I said, is in the Bible.
What you said about Jaywill's position [re : a person shouldn't be filled with dread every time they lose their temper ..] is not in the Bible. Is it?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by Rajk999You are going to help me pull this from the Scripture. You do some of the labor.
By what authority do you claim that someone not following the commandments of Christ will receive that punishment. Who are you to make that call. Are you Christ? Did Christ say that?
How many times did John use the phrase "a thousand years" ?
It is a number between 1 and 10. Tell me then we can go on.
Originally posted by jaywillI am not asking about the 1000 year period.
You are going to help me pull this from the Scripture. You do some of the labor.
How many times did John use the phrase [b]"a thousand years" ?
It is a number between 1 and 10. Tell me then we can go on.[/b]
Paul said .. they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
You say ..The Christian could be in danger of a temporary dispensational punishment.
My question to you is who are you to contradict what Paul says regarding what punishment the evil-doer is to receive, and claiming that someone is eternally saved ?
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Originally posted by Rajk999I'm having trouble figuring out where the "good news" is in your version of the gospel.
I am not asking about the 1000 year period.
Paul said .. they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
You say ..The Christian could be in danger of a temporary dispensational punishment.
My question to you is who are you to contradict what Paul says regarding what punishment the evil-doer is to receive, and claiming that someone is eternally saved ?
It seems like what you're saying is that everyone just needs to repent and do good works. But isn't that what all the Old Testament prophets said?
How did Jesus make things different from the way they were before?
Originally posted by MelanerpesBefore I answer, in your version of the gospel, is there also ..
I'm having trouble figuring out where the "good news" is in your version of the gospel.
It seems like what you're saying is that everyone just needs to repent and do good works. But isn't that what all the Old Testament prophets said?
How did Jesus make things different from the way they were before?
- eternally saved or once saved always saved?
- no punishment for evil doers
- no requirement to do goodworks ?
Originally posted by Rajk999I will agree with you - the "once saved always saved" concept does seem to be an overly simplified version of what Paul is trying to say in Romans - and I understand your frustration with a certain type of Christianity. But Paul, nevertheless, in Romans, is trying to say something very important.
Before I answer, in your version of the gospel, is there also ..
- eternally saved or once saved always saved?
- no punishment for evil doers
- no requirement to do goodworks ?
And yes, the Bible teaches that there is punishment for evildoers and that there is a call to do good works. But this is also very much the case for the Old Testament as well.
Originally posted by MelanerpesThe good news is arrival of Christ the Messiah who died for the sins of mankind. This was the promise made the Abraham etc.
I'm having trouble figuring out where the "good news" is in your version of the gospel.
It seems like what you're saying is that everyone just needs to repent and do good works. But isn't that what all the Old Testament prophets said?
How did Jesus make things different from the way they were before?
Without this sacrifice there would be no hope for mankind. All of us would die in our sins, and there would be no eternal life to hope for, and look forward to.
There is nothing that we did to deserve the death and suffering of Christ. Its entirely through the grace of God that he sent Christ to die for us.
However to benefit from this free gift we are required to do certain things, have faith in Christ and follow his commandments. Our good works cannot pay for this sacrifice but it is still required. This is a demonstration that we deserve the blessing of salvation.
Evil and evil-doers have no place in the righteous kingdom of God.
I can produce quotes from Paul and the Apostles to support all of the above.
Originally posted by Rajk999I pretty much agree with what you say here.
The good news is arrival of Christ the Messiah who died for the sins of mankind. This was the promise made the Abraham etc.
Without this sacrifice there would be no hope for mankind. All of us would die in our sins, and there would be no eternal life to hope for, and look forward to.
There is nothing that we did to deserve the death and suffering of Chris ...[text shortened]... kingdom of God.
I can produce quotes from Paul and the Apostles to support all of the above.
But you make no mention about the Holy Spirit. What role do you believe the Spirit plays?