Why does the devil torture sinners in hell?

Originally posted by damage79
Thanks for the reply

I guess this is an example of using the same/similar data set to generate differing theories/models

As I have more experiences and gather more evidence (research), I upgrade and adapt my theory/model

While you may put boundaries on your model that befit the natural realm, I put my boundaries in a place that complies with the bible( these encompass the natural and then some), and test it within these parameters

Why the bible though?
What makes you choose this as your testing ground?

For me the choice of the natural world is obvious since it's where we live.
I'm intrigued by this utter devotion to a text.

Originally posted by howardgee
He should be rewarding them for doing his bidding.

Another contradiction from the nonsense that is religion coming to you soon.

Have you ever known someone who was full of hate? What do they do? Do they not hate and want everyone else to be miserable?

Have you ever known someone who was in love? What do they do? Do they not want everyone else to feel the love that they feel as well?

The way that we feel gets communicated through how we treat others. This applies to humans as well as the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm, however, Satan is in a perpetual state of hate. Therefore, he can do nothing but hate and wants to share his misery. After all, we all know that misery loves company. Conversely, God is full of love and wants everyone to share in this love. This too is a perpetual state of his existence. It is simply their respecitve natures.

Originally posted by amannion
Why the bible though?
What makes you choose this as your testing ground?

For me the choice of the natural world is obvious since it's where we live.
I'm intrigued by this utter devotion to a text.

devotion yes, but always questioning and grappling with whether it is truth or not. I give it the benefit of the doubt because of my experiences (which IMO were God), and therefore I will trust God until proven otherwise.

Nobody can argue me out of my position, but they could definitely raise points that would raise doubts.... at this point I would go away and research (and pray / experience), to test my model/theory. This process (in the past) has strengthened my beliefs and developed my model.

So, utter devotion yes, but scientifically speaking, there is a possibility that I could come into information that would make me disregard my model. My previous experiences suggest that this is a low probability (IMO), but I cannot appraoch it without logic (just the way my mind tends to work), because blind faith (i believe) will not stand rigorous testing, and is not logical, therefore I am uncomfortable with it

Hope that gives you an idea of where I am coming from

Originally posted by damage79
God is Holy, Righteous, Just

He is Holy, anything unholy in His presence would be destroyed by His holiness (IMO)

He is Righteous and Just. He has made a way for sinners to become holy in His sight (accepting Jesus' sacrifice), How is it just, if he were to allow the sinners (who scorn Jesus' sacrifice) into His presence also?

Are you telling me that God could not deign to have something evil in his presence?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Are you telling me that God could not deign to have something evil in his presence?

Yes I am, He is who He is, He does not change, He has made a way for us to approach Him (Jesus), outside of that, you cannot enter His presence

Originally posted by damage79
Yes I am, He is who He is, He does not change, He has made a way for us to approach Him (Jesus), outside of that, you cannot enter His presence

Then he is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Are you telling me that God could not deign to have something evil in his presence?

somebody define "evil"

Oh my god, an actual thoughtful, non insulting, non verbally violent post by howardgee. It's almost enough to shock me into converting to Xianity.

Almost. I am also intrigued by the devotion to the collection of rather dubious writings.

I am also intrigued by the need for a blood sacrifice. As a father, I consider myself just. I certainly plan to do all in my power to give my daughter the life she deserves. I certainly cannot imagine any time that I would deny her my presence, protection, or my guidence simply because she bears upon her some arbitrary label called Unredeemed. Sorry girl, I'm afraid you're on your own until an appropriate blood sacrifice is made. In the meantime I might be able to help you just a bit if you write "my sins" on the side of an innocent animal and slaughter it in my name. Oh yeah, if you die before the appropriate blood sacrifice is made or if you, for some unfathomable reason decide to turn your back on me after I rejected you in such a pathetic way, you're going to rot in hell where a red guy with a pitchfork will torture you in an effort to hurt me. Except I can't be hurt. Sorry, I love you and all, but that is just the way it is.

Except in Christian terms, God is not only the Father, but the creator of all things. He made the rules, supposedly, which means he came up with the whole blood sacrifice thing, apparently limiting Himself in the capacity to love his own children. Madness. The only other possibility is that an even greater power exists than God who locked Him into the whole blood sacrifice thing, which means God isn't all powerful and omnipotent after all. Long live Muffy.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Then he is not omnipotent.

I am referring specifically to eternal life, post- natural death. There will be a depth and completeness to knowing God and being known by God that will not be achieved on the earth. Until our natural death comes, God continually provides opportunities to choose Him....


for instance, you have heard the core of His message, and you choose not to believe, that is your right and choice.... but there are consequences. But save the free will debate for another thread (although they never tend to go anywhere IMO)

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
somebody define "evil"

Not I, I personally don't believe in evil, except as a judgement passed by one individual on the actions of another. It's you theists that have all the "definative morals"!!

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
somebody define "evil"

SELF WILL OR WILLFULNESS

Originally posted by damage79
devotion yes, but always questioning and grappling with whether it is truth or not. I give it the benefit of the doubt because of my experiences (which IMO were God), and therefore I will trust God until proven otherwise.

Nobody can argue me out of my position, but they could definitely raise points that would raise doubts.... at this point I would go a ...[text shortened]... l, therefore I am uncomfortable with it

Hope that gives you an idea of where I am coming from

Yes, I know I am quoting myself....

but just for clarification, my presence here is not to force my "definitive morals" upon anyone. As mentioned above, I have a relatively logical approach to my beliefs, so I would not expect to be able to convince anyone of anything, but perhaps able to offer another angle of the same piece of evidence.

So please don't get agressive when I answer a query, it is just my take on the matter, feel free to disagree 😉 It is not my place to tell you what to believe.... in fact, any thinking person cannot be "told" what to believe, but need to get there on their own

So, on that note, let us continue....

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Then he is not omnipotent.

http://www.yikers.com/video_chappelle_is_the_black_howard_dean.html
BYAAAAAAH!!!

Originally posted by thesonofsaul

I am intrigued by the need for a blood sacrifice.

Indeed. The Bible does not go into detail why God requires blood sacrifice, but it is apparent throughout the Bible that it is indeed needed. I, however, have my theories.

The Bible says that sin brings death. The Bible also says that our life is in the blood. Therefore, the blood washes away the sin and/or death is washed away with the life of the blood.

Originally posted by whodey
Have you ever known someone who was full of hate? What do they do? Do they not hate and want everyone else to be miserable?

Have you ever known someone who was in love? What do they do? Do they not want everyone else to feel the love that they feel as well?

The way that we feel gets communicated through how we treat others. This applies to humans ...[text shortened]... s love. This too is a perpetual state of his existence. It is simply their respecitve natures.

If the devil truly wants to cause maximum suffering, then he must want the innocent to suffer the most.
Therefore he should be encouraging humans to do as many evil things as they can whilst they are alive. To achieve this, he should be advertising the rewards that evil people will get in Hell, not dissuading them from evil with threats of eternal suffering!