13 Jul 11
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
14 Jul 11
Originally posted by tomtom232But you (and the magicians you speak of) are not the only begotten Son of God. Sine qua non.
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
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14 Jul 11
Originally posted by tomtom232yeah, but will you die for my sins?
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
14 Jul 11
Originally posted by tomtom232And yet they fail to see your greatness? Shocking!! 😲
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
14 Jul 11
Originally posted by tomtom232Can they or you raise the dead? Can they or you rise from the dead?
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
14 Jul 11
5 edits
Originally posted by tomtom232=============================================
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
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It was told us way back in Exodus that the magicians of Pharoah could imitate some of the miracles which God sent Moses to do.
"And Moses and Aaron came to Pharoah, and they did just as Jehovah had commanded; and Aaron thre down his staff before Pharah, sp that it became a serpent.
And Pharoah also called for the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret spells. That is eac one threw down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. And Pharaoh's heart hardened, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." (Expdus 7:10-13)
And this kind of imitation was repeated. Pharoah's skillful occult magicians showed Moses that they also could perform wonders. The result was that Pharoah's heart hardened against God.
The gives warning that it is not that reliable to trust solely in miraculous signs. We do not know the extent of Satan's ability to effect astounding works of power through those people who turn themselves over to his enfluence.
Jesus did not always commit Himself to people who chased after miracles as the Gospel of John tells us:
"Now when He was in Jerusalem as the Passover, during the feast, many believed into His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus Himself did not entrust Himself to them, for he knew all men. And because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man." (John 2:23-25)
Here Jesus was not excited that some people believed in Him because of the "signs" [miraculous acts with symbolic significance] that He did. He was more interested in what was really in their hearts morally and spiritually. He did not commit Himself to these people.
Not everyone whose jaw drops at seeing a miracle wants to receive Christ as the Lord and center of their heart.
On a few occasions Jesus performed a miracle and strictly told someone NOT to mention the miracle. Often they could not obey His word:
"And He was moved with compassion, and stretching out His hand, He touched him and said to him, I am willing; be cleansed! And immediately the leprosy left him, and he was cleansed.
And sternly charging him, immediately He thrust him out, and said to him, See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony to them.
But he wnet out and began to proclaim it much and to spread the matter abroad, so that He could no longer enter openly into the city, but stayed outside in deserted places. And they came to Him from everywhere." (Mark 1:41-45)
Here, as elsewhere, Jesus demonstrated His power over nature. Yet He could not get men to obey His simple command. A miracle was done in the physical realm. But in the moral realm the man was still not subject to God.
I think if you read the Bible as a whole you will see that God never relied soley on miraculous power to save sinners. This healed sinner left not saved from being able to love Christ above his own excited sensational experience.
In these last days this is important. The Antichrist and his false prophet will perform miraculous powers. Revelation tells us of a final false prophet with this symbolic discription:
"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authroity of the first beast in his sight, and he cases the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke was healed. And he does great signs ...And he deceives those who dwell on the earth on account of the signs which he was given power to do ..." (See Rev. 13:11-14)
The appearance of the false prophet is like a lamb. This may mean that he seems like Jesus the Lamb of God, the Redeemer. But his words are those of a dragon. The dragon is Satan (12:9). Many false prophets seem to be like Jesus. But those with spiritual discernment can detect the speaking of Satan the dragon when these false prophets teach and speak.
In these last days if we do not have spiritual discernment we can be deceived by a great miracle worker. We could also be deceived in these end times, by some great person seeming to be rescusitated from death:
" ... and he causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke was healed." (v.12)
There will be an Antichrist whose death stroke was healed in imitation to the resurrection of Christ. And there will be a false prophet working for him who appears as the Lamb of God, Christ the Redeemer, yet opens his mouth and sounds like Satan.
The beauty of the Son of God goes much much deeper than the miraculous signs which He did. These are important. But you said nothing about His words. The power of His teaching matches the deeds He did. The officers were sent to arrest Him and returned.
"The attendants therefore came to the chief prosts and Pharisees, and these said to them, Why did you not bring Him? The attendants answered, Never has a man spoken as this man has." (John 7:45,46)
Some of us are not just interested in your magic. We are impressed that in addition to demonstrating He was the Son of God with authority over the forces of nature, His words carry a divine life imparting power to change our lives. That is to turn our hearts from everything else to God.
Have you read through the New Testament ?
14 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI knew you would be along soon enough to speak about Moses and Pharaoh. You didn't disappoint. 🙂 That's why my comment was brief and to the point.
[b]=============================================
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most chal from everything else to God.
Have you read through the New Testament ?[/b]
Thanks for including the bit about the false prophet and the Antichrist. It brings the message home for our times.
15 Jul 11
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI still dont see why many christians put themselves below god and jesus. It seems very childish and doesn't really paint an accurate description of reality for me.
There is a vast difference between weighing in with truth and/or opinion, and actually being truth. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't merely tell the truth, He is Truth.
But hey, apparently it works quite well for some.
Oh, and not only was jc the truth, we are too.
15 Jul 11
Originally posted by tomtom232Can you do an 'ascension' please?
He walked on water, turned water into wine, made water come out of a rock etc etc... I put the question to you... Can not magicians of today appear to walk on water, turn water into wine and make water come out of a rock? Can not magicians of today make elephants dissappear and escape from the most challenging of predicaments?
I, personally, can turn wine into water... I must be a messiah!
15 Jul 11
Originally posted by karoly aczelOh good grief.
I still dont see why many christians put themselves below god and jesus. It seems very childish and doesn't really paint an accurate description of reality for me.
But hey, apparently it works quite well for some.
Oh, and not only was jc the truth, we are too.
This is what irks me most about atheists.
I mean GOD FORBID that there might actually be a being out there who is greater than you. A being worthy of your worship because He is so much greater than you. The being who CREATED you after all. It really seems to me sometimes that this is the real problem atheists have with God. They can't handle playing second fiddle to anyone or anything. How utterly egotistic can you be.