08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI thought we'd covered the quotations phase...
As for the Founding Fathers, here's what a couple of them said:
"The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at t ...[text shortened]... an ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist." )
But seeing you're so onto quotes, please, quote some of the Christian ones as well (these were deists BTW) - like George Washington.
08 Nov 05
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Originally posted by RatXWashington kept his cards close to his chest.
I thought we'd covered the quotations phase...
But seeing you're so onto quotes, please, quote some of the Christian ones as well (these were deists BTW) - like George Washington.
Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]
In February, 1800, a few weeks after. Washington's death, Jefferson made the following entry in his journal:
"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice" (Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572).
Jefferson further says: "I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did" (Ibid).
These men were Freethinkers.
Here's a link to a set of bogus quotes trying to show that Washington & others were really Christian:
http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageStill continuing with the quotation vein are we:
As for the Founding Fathers, here's what a couple of them said:
"The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at t ...[text shortened]... an ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist." )
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"
- George Washington -
"I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
- Benjamin Franklin -
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
- Thomas Jefferson -
08 Nov 05
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Originally posted by HalitoseYes, you've fallen for a hoax perpetrated by David Barton.
Still continuing with the quotation vein are we:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"
- George Washington -
"I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice ...[text shortened]... t is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
- Thomas Jefferson -
http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartchron.htm
http://www.ntskeptics.org/1997/1997june/june1997.htm (skip down to "Don't Know Much About History"😉.
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageYour links are neither neutral nor objective. As I said before, quotes prove very little, either way, but you seem to have taken it to a new level: the quoting of weblinks, which I have neither the time or the interest to pursue.
Yes, you've fallen for a hoax perpetrated by David Barton.
http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartchron.htm
http://www.ntskeptics.org/1997/1997june/june1997.htm (skip down to "Don't Know Much About History"😉.
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatXI thought we had already dealt with this, I am not willing to argue this, based on points a-d in my listing post. I am still of the opinion that their propensity to do good is not sufficiently and necessarily built upon their religion.
Please substantiate your claim. I believe that men who held to their faith and lived a life of prayer and dedication to God did much greater good to the world than any atheist.
History proves this. Men of prayer and steadfast commitment to God in their faith have saved more lives, established freedom (the founding fathers and slave abolishinists) and continue to save millions through their dedicated work (eg. Booth's Salvation Army etc).
Are you denying that attrocities are commited in the name of religion on a daily basis? The mere fact that the various religions in the world still fail not only to agree, but also to live in peace with their disagreement is evidence that the so called potential of religion is unmet. There may be figures that stand out as doing great evil and great good, but you are ignoring the daily, prolonged and local situations which are never reported (good or bad) or will be or have been lost to history. I doubt very much whether religion really constitutes an overall force for good in this world, Christian, Muslim etc. or all together. Your mistaken belief that atheism is a driving force in the opposite vein (since atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in god and not a belief in anything else) means that you will remain unconvinced since in your eyes atheism is the opposing force to religion.
08 Nov 05
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Originally posted by HalitoseI don't have the time to summarise the story of David Barton, a revisionist Christian who fabricated the quotes you used above, but the link I posted (http://www.ntskeptics.org/1997/1997june/june1997.htm) gives the story.
Your links are neither neutral nor objective. As I said before, quotes prove very little, either way, but you seem to have taken it to a new level: the quoting of weblinks, which I have neither the time or the interest to pursue.
Here's a snippet:
Church & State editor Rob Boston, who also authored books such as Why The Religious Right is Wrong about Separation of Church and State, related the following story of what happened when someone decided to track down the James Madison quote:
Robert S. Alley, professor emeritus at the University of Richmond and author of James Madison on Religious Liberty, undertook a dogged effort to track it down. Enlisting the help of the editors of The Papers of James Madison at the University of Virginia, Alley scoured reams of documents, books, and writings. After coming up empty-handed, the Madison scholar concluded that the quote was probably fictional.
Now the major purveyor of the quote, Texas-based Religious Right propagandist David Barton, has admitted it's bogus. Last year Barton's group, WallBuilders, issued a one-page document titled "Questionable Quotes," a list of 12 statements allegedly uttered by Founding Fathers and other prominent figures, that are now considered to be suspect or outright false.9
OK, Hal? Satisfied?
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatXCurrently, I'm simply showing that the assertion that the Founding Fathers were motivated by religion is false. Right-wing Christians have been revising history... "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God" (George Bush Snr).
Man, you thrive on those obscure atheist propaganda sites...
Home page: google
Standard search format: Crap on Christians
Speaking of crapping, are you trying to compete with howardgee for the title of Ad Hominem King?
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageFair enough. Thanks for the paraphrase...
I don't have the time to summarise the story of David Barton, a revisionist Christian who fabricated the quotes you used above, but the link I posted (http://www.ntskeptics.org/1997/1997june/june1997.htm) gives the story.
Here's a snippet:
Church & State editor Rob Boston, who also authored books such as Why The Religious Right is Wrong about ...[text shortened]... minent figures, that are now considered to be suspect or outright false.9
OK, Hal? Satisfied?
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by HalitoseI have, on several occasions. Nicaea was a farce, and Constantine worshipped Deus Sol Invictus. His 'conversion' was purely cosmetic, or worse: a total fabrication.
Tell us about it...
According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967, article on Constantine the Great: Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Church of Rome as evidenced by Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum discovered under St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City and dated to 250 and from the article on Christmas: from the beginning of the third century "Sun of Justice" was used as a title of Christ.
Happy?