08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Starrman1. Hitler - Christian
You are an ass:
Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]1. Hitler - Christian
2. Stalin - I don't know enough about him to comment.
3. Al Capone - Roman Catholic
4. 2 Pac - Theist, hardly responsible for the destruction of the world anyway.
5. Ice Cube - What has he done?
6. Kurt Cobain - What is he responsible for?
7. Marilin Manson - Do ...[text shortened]... t and b) using that supposed atheism as an excuse for committing evil?
Need I continue đ[/b]
Oh, dear. Actions speak so loud, nobody can hear what you're saying... He was very anti-Christian the moment he had the power over the church and his actions were in direct violation to the Christian faith.
2. Stalin - I don't know enough about him to comment.
An outspoken atheist, like Lenin and Marx and their communist counterparts.
4. 2 Pac - Theist, hardly responsible for the destruction of the world anyway.
5. Ice Cube - What has he done?
6. Kurt Cobain - What is he responsible for?
Yeah, how the heck did he make the list?
8. Karl Marx - Many people would say he was a force for good in the world.
In what way? Have you read Das Kapital? You'd understand Red October and other communist revolutions based on his step-by-step manual to revolution.
10. Michael Jackson.... How is he a) An atheist and b) using that supposed atheism as an excuse for committing evil?
Indeed, most of these numbnuts don't deserve recognition at all - they're on the wrong side of the table... We're discussing men and women who did a lot of good to the world!
08 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by RatXThe issue is whether Origen was Christian or not. He featured on Hal's list. I find his views quite persuasive in some respects.
Is this important to this thread? I could answer you on another when I have time...
There's another thread about it called "metempsychosis and apokatastasis" on page 2 now I think.
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatX
Your claim is based on nothing more than speculation - your arrogance to assume the list is nothing more than a group of people who happen to meet the criteria of being men of some religious sense is absurd and unsubstantiated.
Sigh... It is not absurd. And since you have yet to offer any substantiation, your claims on my lack of it are somewhat premature, don't you think?
Let's not play games (as BDN and Howard have started) but get out your competing list. I stand by my list, although I can expand it and blow a lot of time on it just for you.
I have already told you twice, I am not having a competition here. It is of no use whatsoever to reel a list of people off and then argue till we're blue in the face as to:
a) What good is
b) Whether religion is the driving force or a coincidental one in the minds of the listed
c) Whose list is better
d) Whether the lists should contain Christian, Theist, Atheist or whatever.
So, with that in mind, here is a short list of people I admire and whom I think have positively influenced the world. I will not debate it with you, form your own conclusions on it. Also, I am not limiting the list to atheists since I am not immature enough to believe that religion cannot spawn good men as well as bad, likewise with atheism.
Christopher Reeve
John Peel
Bertrand Russell
Charles Darwin
Mother Theresa
David Attenborough
Voltaire
Charles Dickens
Shakespeare
Newton
Marconi
Watson & Crick
David Hume
Marie Curie
Marquis de Sade
Clarence Darrow
Lord Byron
Hendrix
Stephen Hawking
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by StarrmanThanks... I appreciate you making up the list, including all types.
Originally posted by RatX
[b]Your claim is based on nothing more than speculation - your arrogance to assume the list is nothing more than a group of people who happen to meet the criteria of being men of some religious sense is absurd and unsubstantiated.
Sigh... It is not absurd. And since you have yet to offer any substantiation, your c ...[text shortened]...
David Hume
Marie Curie
Marquis de Sade
Clarence Darrow
Lord Byron
Hendrix
Stephen Hawking[/b]
Sigh... It is not absurd. And since you have yet to offer any substantiation, your claims on my lack of it are somewhat premature, don't you think?
I have substantiated on several of those I listed and why I believe they had the greatest influence (saved millions of lives and changed civilizations for the better).
I'm just stating that howardgee is an idiot in claiming that religion is a waste of life (people who were religious changed the world for the better).
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatXIf religion were the majority force for good that it should be, then I would agree with you. Since it is nowhere near its self expressed potential, I shall continue to consider it a force for delusion and oppression, regardless of my atheistic views. Whether I personally agree with howard's points is another matter.
Thanks... I appreciate you making up the list, including all types.
[b]Sigh... It is not absurd. And since you have yet to offer any substantiation, your claims on my lack of it are somewhat premature, don't you think?
I have substantiated on several of those I listed and why I believe they had the greatest influence (saved millions of lives and c ...[text shortened]... g that religion is a waste of life (people who were religious changed the world for the better).[/b]
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageHe was a Christian and great philosopher. When it comes to what I think of him, I do disagree with some of his statements, but it's a difference in theology.
The issue is whether Origen was Christian or not. He featured on Hal's list. I find his views quite persuasive in some respects.
There's another thread about it called "metempsychosis and apokatastasis" on page 2 now I think.
08 Nov 05
Originally posted by StarrmanSince it is nowhere near its self expressed potential, I shall continue to consider it a force for delusion and oppression...
If religion were the majority force for good that it [b]should be, then I would agree with you. Since it is nowhere near its self expressed potential, I shall continue to consider it a force for delusion and oppression, regardless of my atheistic views. Whether I personally agree with howard's points is another matter.[/b]
Please substantiate your claim. I believe that men who held to their faith and lived a life of prayer and dedication to God did much greater good to the world than any atheist.
History proves this. Men of prayer and steadfast commitment to God in their faith have saved more lives, established freedom (the founding fathers and slave abolishinists) and continue to save millions through their dedicated work (eg. Booth's Salvation Army etc).
08 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by RatXAs for the Founding Fathers, here's what a couple of them said:
History proves this. Men of prayer and steadfast commitment to God in their faith have saved more lives, established freedom (the founding fathers and slave abolishinists) and continue to save millions through their dedicated work (eg. Booth's Salvation Army etc).
"The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. The are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
-- James Madison
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
-- Thomas Jefferson
An informative link:
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
(Hal:
At times religious wording was written into Lincoln's speeches, but such public soothes were brought at the insistence of White House staff members. In 1843, after he lost a campaign for Congress, he wrote to his supporters: "It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist." )