Why religion will never die.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
You need to re-read your Marx. From the Communist Manifesto, chapter I:

"Law, morality, religion, are to [the proletariat] so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests."

"But communism abolishes eternal truths, [b]it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them o ...[text shortened]... l past historical experience."

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html[/b]

The bourgeois are the property-owning oppressors and the proletariat are the oppressed working class (as I've understood it). What Marx is saying is that (to the oppressed) religion, morality and law as defined by the bourgeois are only there to serve their own interest (based on prejudices about the proletariat).

The reason I'm making this distinction is because I believe that religion and morality in Marx eyes were tools to uphold the class structure of those whom are "better", property-owning people and the lower classes. Religion to him, was therefore not a simple matter of believing in a god. It was much more.

I can certainly see how he was an atheist if he saw the church for how it was used (in those days, and possibly even now). It was a machinery used to control people and keep them satisfied with what little they had (as compared to the upper-class) and thankful for every little thing they received.

Ironically, in most communistic states, communism itself has been used in the exact same way. It still doesn't mean you must be an atheist to exist in a communistic society or that a communistic society can only exist as it does in China or Cuba. Communism can actually be based on democracy just as well. In fact, I feel that the only way communism would work in real life, is if it is based on a democratic model of some kind.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
You need to re-read your Marx. From the Communist Manifesto, chapter I:

"Law, morality, religion, are to [the proletariat] so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests."

"But communism abolishes eternal truths, [b]it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them o ...[text shortened]... l past historical experience."

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html[/b]

The real question before getting into what is or is not acceptable under communism is to ask what you mean by communism.
The word has a broad definition and can be used in different ways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

I would think that the basic concept of communism does not exclude religion though any form of government could be incompatible with cirtain religions.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The real question before getting into what is or is not acceptable under communism is to ask what you mean by communism.
The word has a broad definition and can be used in different ways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

I had Marxism in mind, though I have a feeling Leninist Communism would not be too nice to religion either.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I had Marxism in mind, though I have a feeling Leninist Communism would not be too nice to religion either.

Define religion. Is it an organisation striving to control and maintain a classorder among people? If not, I see no problem in having religion within a communistic society. (Marxisticially wise.)

Originally posted by stocken
Define religion. Is it an organisation striving to control and maintain a classorder among people? If not, I see no problem in having religion within a communistic society. (Marxisticially wise.)

You're mixing up the definition of religion with its (alleged) purpose.

I posted a definition by Bertocci not too long back in the 'Spiritual Quotes' thread. Essentially, a religion is a set of values (and practices that follow from those values) that are held by believers to be sponsored by, or in harmony with, the enduring structure of the Universe.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Essentially, a religion is a set of values (and practices that follow from those values) that are held by believers to be sponsored by, or in harmony with, the enduring structure of the Universe.

I see. Doesn't that mean that you can actually not believe in a god (or a universe with a purpose) and still define a religion? By that definition, atheism in a more specific form would also be forbidden. The other way around, believing that there's a God (and a purpose to life), is in itself not forbidden.

Viewed in this light, communism is like a strict religious dogma, stating what you can and cannot do; what you must or must not do. I always considered communism to be a step in the right direction (from the time of Marx). The basic idea being to break down all of the class structures of society and build a new foundation that doesn't give anyone a birthgiven priviledge. And then to maintain a structure that won't allow any religious or political interest to gain such influence that it could disturb the new structure and possibly re-introduce different classes of people.

I may have to read up on Marx. It's possible that I missed details that are essential to understanding communism as a concept. Communism in practice I'm only too familiar with.

I'm pretty sure that by any definition you can't say that communism promotes atheism. In fact, from Bertocci's definition of religion, communism doesn't promote or inhibit any belief in supernatural matters what so ever. It merely forbids you to practice the religions built on top of those beliefs. (Which is wrong, of course. Just another oppression, really. The very thing communism set out to eradicate. Oh, the irony.)

If communism (as practised in some dictatorships today) promotes anything, it's religions like christianity and catholicism. People living in despair need to know there's some meaning to it all and so they're bound to seek their answers in the supernatural since the earthly life (in a harsch dictatorship) doesn't give them a whole lot of inner joy or gratification. If you are correct about your first statement that communism affected peoples believes, you would logically not find many atheists there since atheism in itself doesn't really offer you anything in terms of afterlife or rewards for your earthly actions.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Which just proves the point that christians start out as unpure filthy beings in desparate need of FIXING, which the church will happily do.
Poor christians.
Atheists know there is nothing inherently wrong with humans that desparately needs fixing. A higher order of living if you ask me.

Atheists know there is nothing inherently wrong with humans that desparately needs fixing.

Ah... yes. Do you think that there are any bad (evil) people? If so, why do you think they are bad (evil)?

Secondly, do you think that a child, if given all that it wants would grow up into a considerate (I guess what you would define as an essentially good) person?

To rephrase... if a child is allowed to grow up without the moral correction of an adult, would it attain a morally good lifestyle?

Originally posted by Halitose
To rephrase... if a child is allowed to grow up without the moral correction of an adult, would it attain a morally good lifestyle?

Please don't do this. I beg you not to start yet another moral discussion. Then we have to define what morality is. And from there (even though we can't even agree on that) we have to discuss whether or not it's possible for someone to "discover" moral laws that are essentially the same as "we" have now. And if so, then yes, a child could grow up to be moral even without guidance. Guaranteed? No, but then again, it's no guarantee that you'll be moral even if you do grow up under the proper guidance of adults.

😞😴

I have a headache the size of John Holmes preserved partystick. It's gonna drive me crazy tonight. 🙁

Bye now.

Originally posted by stocken
Please don't do this. I beg you not to start yet another moral discussion. Then we have to define what morality is. And from there (even though we can't even agree on that) we have to discuss whether or not it's possible for someone to "discover" moral laws that are essentially the same as "we" have now. And if so, then yes, a child could grow up to be moral ...[text shortened]... of John Holmes preserved partystick. It's gonna drive me crazy tonight. 🙁

Bye now.

Perhaps I should have rephrased the question to: if a child is allowed to grow up without any moral correction, would it attain a morally good lifestyle?

You can define morality as you wish. The question is not contingent on us agreeing on one definition.

Originally posted by Halitose
Perhaps I should have rephrased the question to: if a child is allowed to grow up without any moral correction, would it attain a morally good lifestyle?

Why not?

Originally posted by whodey
My impression is that many on this forum seem to think that atheism will some day prevail over those of us who are religious. They seem to think that man is evolving, of coarse, and will therefore one day evolve to a point of realization that religion is foolishness. Sceince will one day "explain away" the foolish beliefs that religion claims. In fact, man ...[text shortened]... ursuit of God's law of love? Which will have a greater impact for you on a personal level?

Religion will never die because human understanding of the things around us will never be exact of complete. Human have the isatiable need to explain that which they do not understand or that which has no known answer. most often, these answers involve something plausable, but entirely based in faith.

Originally posted by stocken
I see. Doesn't that mean that you can actually not believe in a god (or a universe with a purpose) and still define a religion? By that definition, atheism in a more specific form would also be forbidden. The other way around, believing that there's a God (and a purpose to life), is in itself not forbidden.

Viewed in this light, communism is like a ...[text shortened]... lly offer you anything in terms of afterlife or rewards for your earthly actions.

Doesn't that mean that you can actually not believe in a god (or a universe with a purpose) and still define a religion?

That depends on what you mean by "universe [without] a purpose". Certainly, you don't need to believe in a God.

The point is - a religious believer will adhere to a set of values that he believes is somehow endorsed by or built into the superstructure of or driving force behind the cosmos.

[Communism] merely forbids you to practice the religions built on top of those beliefs.

which sets it firmly against religion.

If communism (as practised in some dictatorships today) promotes anything, it's religions like christianity and catholicism.

Really? 😕

Originally posted by stocken
Why not?

To be, or not to be: that is the question.

And that question dear Stock is for you to answer: do you think a child left to himself would develop vice or virtue?

Originally posted by Halitose
To be, or not to be: that is the question.

And that question dear Stock is for you to answer: do you think a child left to himself would develop vice or virtue?

do you think a child left to himself would develop vice or virtue?

Neither. It takes a herd to instill the kind of herd mentality you have in mind.

Originally posted by Halitose
To be, or not to be: that is the question.

And that question dear Stock is for you to answer: do you think a child left to himself would develop vice or virtue?

Virtue