Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThis scripture is not relevant.
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but acco ...[text shortened]... d death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" (2 Timothy 1: 7-10)
Timothy is talking to Christians who are already saved from this (alleged) eternal hell, not non-Christians who are those allegedly being driven to Christ by fear of a future Christ spectating them being burnt alive in hell.
Originally posted by divegeesterYes, however, witnessing for Christ is based on the fact that we are debtors to all men and reflects the grace already extended to us. Spiritual birth is a supernatural event accomplished by the ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the executor of salvation whenever positive volition exists; We are not told to resort to fear mongering nor did Christ Himself engage in it during His First Advent. The word "fear" for a maturing believer in Christ carries the express connotation of reverential awe and respect as opposed to being fearful or afraid. Those who reject the person and work of Jesus Christ on their behalf will tremble with mega fear when they appear at the Great White Throne Judgment and realize the eternal destiny they've chosen.
This scripture is not relevant.
Timothy is talking to Christians who are already saved from this (alleged) eternal hell, not non-Christians who are those allegedly being driven to Christ by fear of a future Christ spectating them being burnt alive in hell.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you agree that RHP [and all its forums, not just the Spirituality Forum] is an example of the "social media" you mentioned or not?
This spirituality forum is the focus: "Spirituality: Debate and general discussion of the supernatural, religion, and the life after."
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you think that Christian threats or predictions of there being "mega fear", and that non-believers will "tremble" because they are so scared, can somehow make a person 'choose' to believe something that he or she simply does not find to be credible?
Those who reject the person and work of Jesus Christ on their behalf will tremble with mega fear when they appear at the Great White Throne Judgment and realize the eternal destiny they've chosen.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo do you disagree with sonship then, when he says that "the fear of eternal suffering is a legitimate mechanism for bringing people to Christ"?
Yes, however, witnessing for Christ is based on the fact that we are debtors to all men and reflects the grace already extended to us. Spiritual birth is a supernatural event accomplished by the ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the executor of salvation whenever positive volition exists; We are not told to resort to fear mongering nor did Christ Himse ...[text shortened]... n they appear at the Great White Throne Judgment and realize the eternal destiny they've chosen.
Originally posted by FMFIt continues to interest me how many of the Christians here will only confront those people who appear to not be members of their little in group.
I have a feeling Suzianne may not want to confront Grampy Bobby for his "melodramatic" fear mongering. 😉
Suzianne for example, obviously fundamentally disagrees with sonship on this current topic, but while completely ignoring his pitch on the topic over pages and pages of 'fear and eternal hell' threads, she will readily confront someone else about it.
Originally posted by HandyAndyPerhaps. I rather think that Suzianne's need to be a loyal sycophant, when it comes to certain Christian posters here, completely transcends any need in her mind to seem principled or coherent about any of the points of theology she disagrees with them upon.
Phobophobia?
"1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body [a]to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 [b ]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [d]became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13: 1-13)
"Footnotes:
a.1 Corinthians 13:3 Early mss read that I may boast
b.1 Corinthians 13:7 Or covers
c.1 Corinthians 13:8 Lit prophecies
d.1 Corinthians 13:11 Lit have become...have done away with
e.1 Corinthians 13:12 Lit in a riddle
f.1 Corinthians 13:13 Lit greater"
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyUsing quotes to deflect and hide behind when dodging straight forward on-topic questions always strikes me as a shoddy and rather furtive use of the Bible. But it's not as if you haven't done it umpteen times before. 😉
"1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surre ...[text shortened]... ..have done away with
e.1 Corinthians 13:12 Lit in a riddle
f.1 Corinthians 13:13 Lit greater"
Originally posted by FMF"'umpteen times' x 1,001 'before' after all I should know." ~Vivian
Using quotes to deflect and hide behind when dodging straight forward on-topic questions always strikes me as a shoddy and rather furtive use of the Bible. But it's not as if you haven't done it umpteen times before. 😉
Originally posted by divegeesterIf it knows the outcome of events but chose's not to intervene, for instance, a little voice in the ear a few seconds ahead of a tragedy, which would presumably be within the power of a deity, then said deity did not wish for the person to be alive past the point of impact with the bus. So not being able to intervene directly still gives the possibility for such a deity to forewarn a person and avoid the death.
It is possible to know the outcome of an event, or a series of events without controlling the outcome. Knowledge of the outcome does not therefore indicate that the observer dictated the outcome.
That in fact does not happen.
Therefore I have to conclude said deity is not particularly interested in the human race as a whole, as the 100+ million deaths at the hands of despots in the 20th century wars would indicate also.
This deity seems to have had no interest in giving any aid like forewarning the people say 3 years in advance that a large evil is spreading across the land and you better find a new home in a country away from Europe (in the case of Jews) or somewhere outside of China or Cambodia or Russia (Soviet era) and all the other countries where thousands of deaths and tortures have happened and are happening aws.
This is not the case of hypothetical atheists doomed by this deity, millions of those suffering were god fearing observant Christians and were tortured and killed by the millions, women and children included.
Exactly what does this deity gain when a 1 month old infant is shot in the head by evil men?